08-22-2007, 04:56 AM | #101 |
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30 years ago, children's book writer Astrid Lindgren discovered that her marginal tax had risen to 102% and, like the Beatles wrote a song the Taxman, Lindgren wrote a children's story on the subject
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08-22-2007, 10:46 AM | #102 | |
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But, back to Britain, even with such a high rate, their economy did not collapse, and neither did their entertainment industry output.
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08-22-2007, 01:24 PM | #103 | |
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Not to mention Snufkin
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08-22-2007, 01:33 PM | #104 | |
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I can easily picture you facing the rack, branding irons, and red-hot pincers and calmly saying "Here I stand, I can do no other." OTOH, it's no great stretch to imagine you sitting behind the bench looking down at the heretic in that same position.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-22-2007, 01:40 PM | #105 | |
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Let's say there's a plague sweeping the land, and people are dropping like flies. You know you have the cure, but meanwhile there are a thousand counterfeiters out there not only pushing their fake nostrums but preventing you getting the facts out. Shouldn't fakirs and pedlars of quack medicine be banned?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-22-2007, 02:44 PM | #106 | |
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I just think that, in general, orthodox systems (be they religious or social in foundation) tend to say, "we must get society to this specific moral point no matter how we go about it". I was curious if you took that hard of a line. It's the difference between encouraging a given morality and enforcing one.
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08-22-2007, 07:50 PM | #107 |
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?So, BJ, a fifty percent taxation rate is encouraging a moral view or enforcing one?
?How about a 95 - 102% tax rate? Encouraging a moral view or enforcing one?
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08-22-2007, 07:53 PM | #108 | |
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08-22-2007, 07:58 PM | #109 |
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HB, I clearly need an elite who is that arrogant to tell me what to do with my money and to shut up when I protest their use of my money. I am only a fiscal conservative, after all. What do I know? Clearly however the use of taxation to finance government endeavors is violence of the crudest sort...taking from the producers to give what gets votes for the elite to the non-producers.
The old golden rule with a little ersatz communism/socialism and some people just love it. In later Rome it was known as bread and circuses. But I digress into reality rather than fictional self-stimulation about how good I am because the government takes the money instead of bandits.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
08-22-2007, 08:20 PM | #110 | |||
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I'm getting to your theoretical plague question. Thinking about it .
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08-22-2007, 08:39 PM | #111 | |
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08-22-2007, 09:57 PM | #112 | ||
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What a great idea for a thread Suncrafter!
1 - What would you make the legal drinking age? 16 (Also applies to buying pot and cigarettes) 2 - Driving age? 16, with graduated licencing such as in BC. 3 - Age of sexual consent? 16 (however, you can't have sex with someone who is over 19 and also 5 years your senior) 4 - Voting age? 12 (Parents can vote by proxy for those children under the age of 12.) 5 - At what age would someone become an adult (free from parental control)? 19 6 - What types of recreational drugs (if any) would be legal? Pot (small amounts, which I would get some Dutch scientists and policy-makers to advise me on) and alcohol would be legal for a business to buy and sell, but they would be licenced. The licence could be revoked if certain conditions were not met. Anyone can buy or sell caffeine, though minors would be encouraged not to consume it. Tobacco would be legal, but cigarettes, tobacco, chewing tobacco, snus and other tobacco consumable products would be regulated severely as to what chemicals could be added. You can put tobacco in cigarettes, but you cannot add nicotine (only what occurs naturally in the tobacco are allowed), you can't add formaldehyde, battery acid, tar, and all that other crap in cigarettes. Cigarettes would contain the paper, filter, tobacco, and any substance that also meets my Food and Agriculture Act. The same applies to other tobacco products. It would be illegal to buy, sell or possess cocaine, LSD, heroin and ecstasy. It would not be a crime to use the drug, but there would be bylaws against it. Addiction to these drugs would be treated as an illness, and addicts would receive necessary medical treatment. The bylaw exists so that drug users can be forced to go through a treatment program if necessary, but won't land in jail with hardcore ciminals. Convicted drug dealers would go to jail. 7 - Can people have guns? (if so - who and what kind?) People can have sporting handguns and shotguns if they have a licence for the weapon and have passed a government approved gun safety course. The course must be renewed every two years. You can own a gun with out the safety course if it's licenced, but you can't use it (mainly collectors would use the licence this way). No automatic weapons, explosives or other military weopens would be allowed to be owned by anyone except the military. 8 - What would be the name of your country? Nurvingidonia (later, the Federation of Nurving*). 9 - Would you have the death penalty? No 10 - What would be the speed limit? 30 km/h near schools and playgrounds 50 km/h on residential/city roads 60 to 80 km/h on larger roads (as appropriate) 100 - 110 km/h on highways (as appropriate) 120 km/h on the freeway, if I build one 11 - What types of religions would be permitted or restricted? All would be permitted. We wouldn't even keep an eye on those Scientology cultists like Germany does. All charities will be tax exempt including ones operated by the religious institution. Which of the following would be legal: 12 - Porn? Yes 13 - Prostitution? Yes 14 - Polygamy? Yes. Polygyny would also be legal. 15 - Homosexuality? No. Haha, just kidding! I really got you guys. It would, of course, be legal. 16 - Stem cell research? Yes 17 - Human Cloning? No 18 - Cock Fighting? No (also no dogfighting or bullfighting) 19 - Slavery? Absolutely not. 20 - Hunting? Yes 21 - Fishing? Yes 22 - Eating meat? Of course! 23 - Littering? It wouldn't be a crime, but I would have a bylaw against it. 24 - Unisex bathrooms? Sure, why not. 25 - Suicide? No. 26 - Gay marriage? Yes. It would be the same as straight marriage. 27 - Abortion? Yes (but only doctors can preform it) Notes: Marriages of any kind are only allowed between adults. No exceptions. Only government officials can legally marry people, but religious institutions are of course free to have any celebration they want. 28 - What types of sexual activity (if any) would be illegal? What adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms is up to them. 29 - Would your county be clothing optional or clothing mandatory? Clothing mandatory, but we're not going to be anal about it. There would be nude beaches, but you wouldn't be allowed to walk around in a playground without any trousers on. Common sense will be enforced here. 30 - Would you have obscenity laws? If so - how would you define "obscene". We would have obscenety laws, defining "obscene" as: material or behavious unnecessarily offensive to the public at large, and since this is vague, a list of exactly what those materials and behavious are would follow. People can challenge this law in court, and future rulings would be precedent-based. This would allow the law to evolve over time as our society's attitudes change. Anti-hate laws would be separate, and much less flexible. Things restricted under the obscenety act would include: You must be 16 or older to buy porn. Only adults can solicit and buy sex. Nudity is only allowed in designated areas. Porn, since it should only be available to adults, cannot be displayed publicly. You must be 16 or older to see a movie with a violent rating. Etc. Swearing is allowed on public radio, and it is up to the discretion of the DJ to decide what will or will not offend his target audience. (As an aside, our copyright laws will include a note that you can't censor lyrics in a song, simply because that pisses me off. If you don't like songs with swearing in them, then don't play that song.) 31 - What system would you set up for collecting taxes? I'll just copy what Canada does, because why re-invent the wheel, eh? - Income tax? (how much?) It will be based on how much people's income is relative to the cost of living in the country. Cost of living will be reassessed every year. People below what we define as the poverty line won't pay any income tax. People earning above the poverty line will pay a proportion of that amount based on how much it is. Eg. Annual earnings ($1000s)/% collected in tax <15/0 15 - 25/5 25 - 35/7 35 - 45/10 45 - 55/13 55 - 65/17 65 - 75/22 75 - 90/26 90 - 110/31 110 - 150/37 150 - 200/44 200 - 250/50 >250/55 If you made $50'000 per year, your taxes would be $1850. The actual percentages would depend on the cost of living and also how much services the government provides. - Sales tax? (how much?) 5% Federal sales tax. Provinces can decide if they want a provincial one, and if so, how much. - Import/Export tax? (how much?) 5% export tax, 10% import tax, on top of federal and provincial taxes. (The higher import tax is to encourage a good balance of trade. Both taxes might change depending on the scarcity of the material being imported or exported. Some imports will be banned, including noxious weeds, exotic or endangered animals, products harvested from endangered animals, etc. Only animals bred in a licenced facility will be allowed to be exported.) 32 - What criteria would someone need to pass to become a citizen? They either would need a good reason to leave their old country or show they have good skills to add to our country. We'll have quite a liberal immigration policy since we will really need people to come live in our country. 33 - What types of people would you allow (or not allow) into your country?People who have criminal records in other countries would not be allowed. I'm looking at you Conrad Black, excuse me, Lord Black. However, if the person is fleeing hardship in that country (persecution, discrimination, they will be allowed in regardless. We decide what is persecution 34 - What type of government would you establish?See footnote. 35 - To what degree would your government be allowed to censor or restrict the media?Only to not allow libel. The rest is up to them. 36 - Aside from laws - what sort of unofficial (and unenforced) cultural rules and traditions would you like to establish? For example - taking shoes off before entering someone's home. Or not eating with the left hand.I'd like to promote an active and outdoorsy culture where people support sports and the arts, and there are many interesting newspapers and newsmagazines. People will be well-educated, well-informed, independent-minded, and caring and active members of society. *Unfortunately for me, my intelligent, hard-working and free-thinking citizens will not stand for any dictatorship no matter how benevolent. There will be peaceful protests, and I will step down, giving up most of my lands except some prime ranchland and forest to which I will retire. I will live to a ripe old age, much loved by the people and remembered fondly in history. The main leaders of the revolution will establish direct democracy in the country, changing our name in a symbol of the total rejection of dictatorship. However, people will decide to keep most of the laws I wrote since they are sensible and fair. I will be kind of like Nepoleon, except without the wars, defeat and exile. Edited to change the age of sexual consent. Society's attitudes do change!
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 08-22-2007 at 09:59 PM. |
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08-22-2007, 10:47 PM | #113 | |||||||||||||||
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And now, to catch up in the thread...
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That is why suicide is illegal in Nurvingieldonia. If someone commits suicide, that means they have died from a mental illness - a tragedy which we will avoid at all costs. Quote:
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I know this is all for fun, but these questions are interesting. Feel free to debate my own laws, especially my more controversial ones on the voting age and addictive drugs. Also, I like your environmental laws. I would enact similarly stringent laws, and have an environmental tax based on pollution it causes or was caused in making the product. Gasoline and diesel will be expensive. Quote:
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Upon graduation from secondary school, education is optional. If someone turns 18 and hasn't graduated, they can choose to leave school. If they later want to upgrade their courses and graduate, this will be free and they can do so at any time. There will be separate classes for these late graduates so they can have class in evenings to work around jobs and they don't have to sit in science class with people half their age. We won't have those stupid Fraser Institute rankings of schools, but the government will examine the pass rate of government exams to determine if a school needs some extra help. Quote:
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And more possible questions... What would your national anthem be? National flower? National bird? National mammal? What would be on your national flag? (Don't answer that one Brownie! j/k ) Would education be compulsory, and if so, to what age? So far my country is most like Legoles's country. Edited for syntax.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 08-22-2007 at 10:49 PM. |
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08-22-2007, 11:10 PM | #114 | |
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08-23-2007, 12:36 AM | #115 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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But there are other places where having gender laws might be a good idea. For instance, the extremely touchy subject of voting. In all the wars in the US that have been fought during which women had the right to vote, substantially more women have voted against the wars than men. And women have been observed in polls over and over again by the Political Science branch throughout many cultures, nations and societies to be less aggressive than men and more opposed to war wherever they happen (according to "Essentials of American Government" by Tim Chevernak, and "International Politics on a World Stage" by Rouskin . . . or Rouskin's name was something like that- I could find it for you if you want it). So there's a case where pulling down a gender related law might not have been within our national security interests. We might have lost some of our resolve to stick out wars because of it. I note that we've lost wars far more frequently in the 20th century than we did in the previous two centuries. But then, men also don't have the natural social talent that women have anywhere near as often as they do. Men don't tend to have feminine talent as much as women as women don't tend to have masculine talent as much as men. Both genders decidedly have talents and qualities in greater amount than the other, and trying to blur or remove that biological line between the two is not helpful to our Western societies. This is my opinion, anyway. It's not that one gender is any better than the other. Both are decidedly equally necessary to the wellbeing and survival of the human race and equally valuable. And neither is less talented than the other- they just tend to be differently talented. Quote:
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Aside from that fact, I think that the situation of pretending Christianity's existing for some people is better than the alternative, the granting of equality to all forms of religion and therefore to all forms of morality. Which is license in society for immorality to abound. That alternative is a despicable one, in my eyes. It is a precedent for unjust laws to spread all of the place, as indeed they have, almost all of them justified in the name of freedom of religion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-23-2007 at 03:19 AM. |
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08-23-2007, 01:30 AM | #116 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Please read this you guys, just so you know... "One more casualty of the war in Iraq brought home to Decatur, Illinois, last weekend. In this case, the soldier's vehicle was hit in Baghdad on June 21st by a rocket-propelled grenade. But this death is one of those that makes this war unique, for it was a woman, 22-year-old Army Specialist Karen Clifton. She is one of the most recent of more than 80 women who have so far been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, a figure nearly double the number of American military women killed in Desert Storm, Vietnam, and Korea, combined. Some 500 have been wounded, many grievously. American women are serving in the U.S. military today in ways and numbers unthinkable a few decades ago. They are now eligible to fill more than 80 percent of military jobs, 250,000 different assignments, often serving side-by-side with men. So far, women have served some 167,000 tours of duty in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, more than four times the number in the first Gulf War. They are not assigned to infantry units, to tanks or submarines, and Pentagon policy officially precludes them from serving in so-called "combat occupations." But in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, where no clear frontlines exist, such distinctions are often hard to make. Women in both theaters today drive Humvees and trucks, escort military convoys, serve as military police, even pilot helicopters and planes on the battlefield, all of it done under the very real -- and constant -- threat of attack. And like men, many women of the U.S. Armed Services have by now served several tours in the war zones. " http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/milit...men_07-05.html
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08-23-2007, 03:14 AM | #117 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-23-2007 at 03:24 AM. |
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08-23-2007, 10:49 AM | #118 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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National defense is a great example. No country would be able to support an effective national defense force without taxation. Vacination is another, something which benefits everyone. Markets work very well on short and intermediate term needs, but not so well on the very longterm ones. Education falls into this category. If it was purely private, the top 25-30% of children would get great educations, and the lower 25-30 would get almost none at all. This makes sense from a business point of view. Why invest in poor children from uneducated families that have a very low probability of being major assets later in life? What the markets are missing are the longterm problems that undereducated adults bring: more crime and social issues, more disease, more social unrest. The goal of public education should not be to make everyone an Einstein, but to keep anyone from being a complete social failure. As far as taxation to provide for this. It makes little sense to tax those who have no disposable income to begin with, and little sense to tax any group so much that making more money is meaningless. So I'd start at around 1% at whatever income level was deemed adequate for providing for one's familiy without any disposable income and gradually bring it up to around 50%, which still leaves incentive for the ultra rich to get a bit ultra richer. I'd also spend much much less on defense and corporate subsidies than our current government does.
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08-23-2007, 10:52 AM | #119 |
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08-23-2007, 02:27 PM | #120 | |
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Are you saying we as citizens often get to go to the polls and vote on if we should go/stay to/in a war or not? Because that doesn’t happen. And it really sounds like that’s what yer saying. Or are you saying that the officials women tend to elect are more likely to be against conflict then the officials men elect? If so then you are making a false conclusion that it’s the ONLY issue females vote on. Whats much more likely is that they vote on many others and the officials they elect may have a tendency to look more toward mediation of conflict than use of force as an only option. But that’s not a direct cause and effect situation. If you are going to start barring people from voting based on indirect consequence then youll wind up with no one voting because you can make the statistics show you whatever you want. So that reasoning doesn’t work. Better ban blacks and the poor and liberals and people with less then three vehicles etc etc. OR are you talking about female elected officials and saying they tend to vote against conflict situations? If so then first off its not really true enough to matter (ie: its not like you are talking about 95% of females). And I hardly think that’s a reason to disqualify them from being elected officials just because they vote for peace more often then men? As above youll need to take this logic to all groups and divisions if you insist on justifying it this way. Youll need to ban all vegetarians. They probably vote for peace in much higher numbers then omnivores. Either way you are basically saying because you don’t think like us we wont allow you to have any say in how things go in your society. You reduce females (and any other group you don’t agree with) to the level of children in effect. This would cause so much more harm then good. And frankly being LESS militant some 5 years ago would have been a better thing for our society in the long run which just shows you that force is not ALWAYS the best choice over peace in every situation. So its good to have a certain segment that is inclined toward reason and mediation mixed in with your war mongers. Like everything in life a balance is best. Even if they do think with their ovaries…
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