Euthanasia

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
Am I anti-life if I'm pro-euthanasia?

I don't think so. If you're for people having a choice to end their own life under certain circumstances it doesn't automatically mean you're against life. Who in their right mind is against life anyway? I always found "anti-life" a pretty dumb term in this or the abortus-debate.

Originally posted by Nerdanel
sorry if this has been discussed earlier. I didn't really read those previous pages..

It's been a year, no wait, two years to the day since we've had this discussion, I say you can safely start discussing it anew without necesarily going over the old pages.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe that if someone has a poor quality of life due to illness or suchlike, they should have the option to remove themselves from this life, and move on to their next incarnation, if that is what they so desire. IE: If my health problems were to degenerate, and paralysis or such like were to inset, I should have such opportunity to pass through.

Basically, I believe that everyone has a choice to make over what happens throughout their life and all Karmic consequences they then have to take along with that; You reap what you sow.

[Mercutio]

I am totally against "death with dignity" or human euthanasia. I believe many people (esp. pro-euthanasia) think they are entitled to a pain/suffering-free life ("pursuit of happiness). They think that all pain/suffering is a bad thing to be avoided at all costs, including death. Just because they may be a burden to society, or they think they are a burden to others, they can't purposely kill themselves, or have someone else help them. The dying should be allowed to die (for example, refuse complicated treatment), however the living should not be allowed to die. Doesn't human life have any sanctity? No matter what its condition?

Here's an article. I always seem to grab articles, don't I? http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/...mentation.html

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

if you had total paralysis, and were simply a burden, would you truly wish to go on?

i simply can not believe that anyone who has lost all purpose can continue to want to just exist

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Eärniel
It's been a year, no wait, two years to the day since we've had this discussion, I say you can safely start discussing it anew without necesarily going over the old pages.

i go through as many pages as i can (up to 30) before joining in on any thread!
maybe i'm just weird??!!

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
if you had total paralysis, and were simply a burden, would you truly wish to go on?

i simply can not believe that anyone who has lost all purpose can continue to want to just exist

No one's life is a "burden" or totally useless. No one loses all their purpose in life. They are a person with a human life! Isn't that purpose enough to live?

There has been testimony (much) from people in terrible pain on the brink of death who still did not want to die. No matter how much pain/suffering it was.

[Menelvagor]

I have slightly conflicting opinions on the euthanasia debate. On the whole I believe that euthanasia should be allowed, but there are obviously any number of problems that would arrise if it were too easy of an option. People suffering extreme pain might "wish to die" while the pain occurs, but that does not mean that that momentary desire should always be abided by. There are plenty of instances where people in immense amounts of pain, even for long periods, will suddenly, through treatment or the advent of a new drug or something like that, be healed and go on to lead healthy, dynamic lives. For example, since I'm reading Awakenings by Oliver Sacks currently, post-encephalitic Parkinson's patients who have been catatonic or have severe compulsions and crippling muscular problems were concidered hopeless cases for up to 30 years. After 30 years, however, the drug l-dopa was discovered which, for some, could return them to almost normal life. If euthanasia had been an option during those 30 years, how many 'hopeless' and 'terminal' patients might have elected for it? How could they know, or be expected to know, that the 'hopelessness' of their situation was an illusion? And, how can you measure whether the gained years after the discovery of the drug would be 'worth' the wait for it, or if the patient would have 'regreted' (term used loosely, they couldn't really regret the euthanasia because they'd be dead) euthanising if they'd known what was in the future? Other questions raised (I'm a psychology major, so I apologise for focusing on psychoses) would involve what the 'self' is: could a person with schizophrenia be allowed to make the decision to euthanize? At least with the issue of psychotic disorders (which could probably be fairly safely expanded to cases of extreme pain), we would have to have a much better understanding of what constitutes the self, and how to distinguish requests made under the influence of something other than the person's direct will (i.e. pain, psychoses, certain medications, etc.), a sidtinction which would, at the least, be difficult to write into a law. In general, though, I believe that having the option to euthanise is good, but the process involved should be long enough and serious enough that the decision cannot be made suddenly or unthinkingly.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Mercutio
No one's life is a "burden" or totally useless. No one loses all their purpose in life. They are a person with a human life! Isn't that purpose enough to live?

The definition of purpose is, I think, subjective. Some people in the same situation may find something that to them still gives purpose to their lives while for others it won't be enough. There are several situations in which I would or could consider my life without purpose or a burden on other people. Life, human life itself is a great purpose but for some - and in some situations- it is simply not enough. There is life and there is quality to life.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Mercutio
There has been testimony (much) from people in terrible pain on the brink of death who still did not want to die. No matter how much pain/suffering it was.

Well, then that's their choice. Euthanasia should absolutely not be anything that anyone is forced to.

[afro-elf]

Yesterday, we transported two women, both 86. They both had dementia and were in terrible shape.

One was screaming if you don't want me why don't you kill me.


The other was had a fever of 105. Her core temp was hot but her extremities were cold. Her dialysis shunt would not stop bleeding. Plus tons of other problems. I held manual compression for an hour. I am watching this lady on the last leg of life. I thought she was going to die on me.

I walked through several nursing homes yesterday. It was so heart breaking to see people in such conditions.

We put humans down for humane reasons though we can't do it for humans.


Just a venting of the day.

AE

[inked]

Victor Frankl authored MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING chronicling his observations of the nature of survival in the concentration camp. Very interesting insights into survivability and purpose.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Victor Frankl authored MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING chronicling his observations of the nature of survival in the concentration camp. Very interesting insights into survivability and purpose.

I am disturbed that you connected euthanasia and concentration camps.

*AWKWARD*

Yes...

By the way, Menelvagor, paragraphs are your friend.

Hey, welcome back Mercutio!

Originally Posted by Mercutio

They [pro-euthanasia activists] think that all pain/suffering is a bad thing to be avoided at all costs, including death.

I don't think people who support euthanasia are trying to avoid death, eh?

There was an interesting article in the Vancouver Courier where euthanasia was mentioned. The person being interviewed said that [paraphrase] he didn't agree with euthanasia because it is the worst kind of discrimination. An old, sick person is allowed to die, but a young healthy person who wants to die gets suicide prevention treatment.

I agree with him that discrimination, especially in this case, should be avoided at all costs.

However, what about the young, sick person?

I think that anyone who is terrible, incurable pain should be allowed to die if they have expressed the wish legally, such as in a living will. (It's also possible to make a living will while you are sick. Also, I believe you can authorise people to do it for you, which is a legal decision as well.)

By legal, I mean you can't be coerced into it, and you have to be aware of what you're doing. (Plus you have to be old enough, and other stipulations.)

This can get very complicated, but that's generally what I think.

[BeardofPants]

Thread bump, nurv.

[inked]

Nurv, I connected concentration camps with survivors and purpose in the matter of survival. That connection is in regard to euthanasia - what prompts persons to survive against all odds and in incredibly horrendous physical conditions. SOYLENT GREEN, on the other hand, makes more of the awkward connection I think you thought I made. EUTHANASIA is active termination of on-going life for some higher purpose alleged by the proponents. It is not equal to refusal of care by the patient.

Active interference is open to abuse (cf. MONTY PYTHON and the HOLY GRAIL........"Bring out your dead!" ... "I ain't dead yet!" ... "Yes, you are.").

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I feel happy...I feel happy...I feel *thud*

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Thread bump, nurv.

Oh. I always forget to check those pesky date stamps.

Nice bump Afro-elf! Even though you had a lousy day at work.

Inked - thanks, I understand what you mean now and am no longer disturbed.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally Posted by Mercutio
They [pro-euthanasia activists] think that all pain/suffering is a bad thing to be avoided at all costs, including death.

I don't think people who support euthanasia are trying to avoid death, eh?

I think what Mercutio meant there was the pro-euthanasia activists thinkit's okay to use death to avoid the pain and suffereing. Not they are trying to avoid death.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That makes sense. I read it the other way, too. Which resulted in much head-scratching.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Elfmaster XK

I think what Mercutio meant there was the pro-euthanasia activists thinkit's okay to use death to avoid the pain and suffereing. Not they are trying to avoid death.

Oh, yes.

I would say that euthanasia isn't to end any pain and suffering, but to end pain and suffering that someone finds unbearable, and that has cannot be alleviated.

[hectorberlioz]

I wonder if this is true....

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...4/616jszlg.asp