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#101 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#102 | |||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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![]() There is a reason why the cut off date is at 3 months. Any later, and it's potentially harmful to the mother. And I say that it should only happen in extreme circumstances.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#103 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
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If you consider that potentiality to become something is the same as being something, then you will have to change a lot of laws. An example: Consider a man with a story of violent behaviour. Consider that is possible that he may evolve into a murderer. Since this is a definite possibility he should be judge and condemned as a murderer before he commits the crime, if we apply the same principle you have defended earlier.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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#104 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Another point to bring up is, even if abortions were illegal, that would not stop many young women from getting abortions. And that just makes it more dangerous and harmful to her life. I have read about some of the horrible things that have happened to young women as a result of illegal, unsafe abortions, ususally resulting in the loss of her life. I won't share those stories here, but keep that in mind.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#105 | |||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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I wonder how you can say when an embryo becomes human? Birth doesn't work, because an ultrasound can clearly reveal a human infant for some time before that happens. Quote:
The fact remains that it's a human embryo. And I say that, despite it's dependance on the mother, it has as much right to live as anyone else.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#106 | |||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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It is the mother's right to chose what to do with her body, NOT the govt or any other person/institution. And as someone said earlier, there is no call for calling these women murderers. These women chose their decisions for a reason - not to have a happy abortion party fun day. ![]()
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#107 | ||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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How can you say that an embryo isn't alive? It grows and changes. It is not dead, and it is not inanimate. Quote:
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#108 | |||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#109 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 479
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Part of the mother's body...well...it is and it isn't. You can take the tack that BoP is using. It is physically attached, shares body fluids, secretes hormones that have systemic effects on the mother and so on. Or you can take the tack that it's not, because it's genetically dissimilar, and in fact the mother's immune system would recognize it as "foreign" if it wasn't somewhat suppressed and the placenta didn't offer some protection. Then what you have is a very effective parasite feeding off the mother. Yup, it's an ugly image to use, but it is a valid analogy from a certain perspective. Either way...mother has a choice whether to keep it or not.
Now that everyone is COMPLETELY confused and muddled...but ethics is like that. So much depends on definitions that are not possible to pin down. ![]() |
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#110 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
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Slightly to the left libertarian.
I don't think true anarchy can exist. My father says he was one of the 'original anarchists'. But that's just me being random. --- Quote:
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 06-25-2002 at 01:01 AM. |
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#111 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 479
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Yes, that's a lovely analogy, except that not all mothers nurse "nursing" children either. There's wetnurses (The analogous situation, transferring to surrogate mothers after implantation, is not possible under current technology, but that's a side interest). There's baby formula. And there's the option of leaving it in the forest for the tigers to get it, although this would be a very last resort in the absence proper adoption agencies and safe abortion clinics (please take your pick between the 2, and let others make their own choice). You can debate analogies, but it's not really going to make a difference to me. An embryo is an embryo. Not a newborn. Not a special kind of tumour. Not a tapeworm. Although it has characteristics of all these things. If you think of it as a newborn, you get one conclusion. You think of it like a tapeworm, you get another. Both analogies are valid, but only as shortcuts that break down when you really need them.
In the end, it has it's own classification, and we are just beginning to put that together. But there will always be differences of opinion. Not to mention extenuating circumstance that change the flavour of the situation. Hence the importance of maintaining choice. Political philosophy: not sure. again, a problem with definitions. I like my social programs, but only if they are well run, so that makes me left. I like government to leave people to their freedoms, so that can be liberal, but it's also a characteristic of some right, but not too right. But i like when government does get involved to seek harmony. It should be an organizing influence, not a controlling one...that's all over the place. The problem with anarchy is that's it's just too messy for me.. Can't abide mess. |
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#112 |
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Another (strange) view on potentiality.
An embryo has the potential to become an adult. According to law, a baby receives rights once born. Since the baby is not yet born, it has no rights. An adult (non-specifically) has the potential to become a corpse. According to law, an adult has rights only during its life (after birth). A corpse has no rights, and an adult (non-specifically) is a potential corpse. If you want to take the rights of the adult, and place it on the unborn baby, you must take the rights of the corpse and place it on the adult. [EDIT: Deleted random nonsense] Last edited by Andúril : 06-25-2002 at 03:20 AM. |
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#113 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Interesting theory, Anduril. . .
Speaking of anarchy, I don't think it would ever work...but according to the test-thing, that is what I lean towards. But it wouldn't work. Is it just me, or are the majority of non-pro-choice people here male? ![]()
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#114 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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![]() And I don't know about the rest of the world, but a corpse over here has rights to not be dug up for 50 years or so. Does this mean that I should wave around my right to not have spades on me for 50 years? And if so, then what happens when I'm fifty? Am I going to have people spading me? And when I've had my fifty years of non-spading, does this mean that I will no longer be eligible for non-spading post-death? ![]() ![]()
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#115 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#116 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Okay, then it's not just you, EG - I'm having that delusion as well!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#117 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#118 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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![]() Lets impregnate them!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#119 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#120 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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I think I may become an anarchist. After years of various political philosophical daliances, I've come to the conclusion that we are on course for exponential population growth. It's not that I don't like crowds. I just don't want to spend my twilight years drinking recyled sewage. We need something big to turn this around.
First there was nuclear annihilation, but outside a skermish between India and Pakistan, and some far out Russian conspiracy theories, there seems little hope of that. Plagues have been looking pretty good, but medical science has done a pretty good job of keeping up, and is only getting better with genetic research. I'm not saying it's completely hopeless. There are many bright and ethical people working hard to solve many of the problems we face as we move into the future. These people, however, have absolutely no power. While this may seem a minor problem (a little grassroots organizing, coalition building, etc) there is also the money thing. They probably don't have much. Now these to qualities are a virtual neccessity in politics. And, finally, even after theoretically gaining money and political backing, you must defeat very well organized political machines. Here in the US the power is cleverly disguised as two almost indistinguishable parties. During the primaries each party works hard to convince the unruly radicals at either extreme that they matter and the other party is evil. Once the election is over, they maintain relatively similar policies, doling out minorpolitical favors to ameliorate party factions that otherwise have no voice. The big players (oil, agribusiness, banking, and developers) win no matter who is in office. They have enouch money to buy power from either "party". So, while there is a theorectical possibility, it is highly unlikely that anything beyond responses to catastrophes in progrress, no real preventative measures will occur. I suspect that most large, populous countries operate on this level. Granting that this is a fairly accurate assumption, we can project a steady downward spiral into a pit of human waste. Take your pick... global warming, desertification, deforestation, endless regional wars, terrorism, stavation. So, how can ancharchy help? Well, we all spend the next five to ten years arming ourselves, learning survival skills, teaching our children to kill (just let them watch cable). When the specific day comes we start blazing away (think Rawanda on a global scale). I, for one should be taken out fairly early since I am large and getting slow in my old age. They family will for suite, most likely. Those that survive will be the stongest (defense and aquiring resources) and the cleverest (stealth and resource creation). Now, for this to truely work, all large groups should be primary targets. Uniforms are a good indicator (sports will be a casualty, unfortunately). Any consolidation of power will threaten the anarchism. Eventually the thinning and disease and the general breakdown of society will make contact between people more limited. Once the machines of industry and society are rusted into uselessness then bands can start to reclaim the land and build simple societies that are self-sustaining. It could work, it would smell really bad, though. ![]() ![]()
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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