04-19-2005, 07:56 PM | #101 |
Word Santa Claus
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Jewish quotes about Heaven/Afterlife tend to be fairly cryptic. For example:
"Rabbi Yaakov says, 'This World is like an anteroom (of a Palace) with respect to the World-to-Come. Prepare yourself in the anteroom so that you will gain entry to the Palace.' (Pirkei Avot, 4:21)" Not a word about what happens if you don't get in, notice. |
04-19-2005, 10:59 PM | #102 | |||||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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but of course you realize millions of Christians and practitioners of other religions would not agree. They would say well I believe like I do because that’s how I was brought up. Because that’s my religion. And one must be faithful to ones religion. Very few of them have taken the time like you (apparently) to do countless hours of research and scientific study on the nature of each and every claim made in the bible and why each and every one of them just happen to be the actual way the world is. They simply believe. Its human nature. Meanwhile, agnostics by definition must look at all the available data and figure out what they can from reality that way. Not because they joined a church or because they were raised a certain way or were born again into a certain way. None of that stuff applies. Its just naked raw what do we know. Quote:
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Further evidence for this can be found in the fact that agnostics can run the gambit from wonderful giving selfless people to cruel horrible selfish killers. And everything in between. There is no one set of “agnostic morals”. Where as with Christians they are all supposed to follow certain specifically spelled out decrees (commandments anyone?). THOU SHALT NOT KILL! Take it or leave it. you have no choice. Its part of being in the club. Quote:
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ive told you where my “morals” come from. You want to know where others think theirs come from ask them. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-21-2005, 05:46 PM | #103 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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They destroyed my post? Do you mean they edited it and didn't tell me? Or was it just destroyed from the thread split?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
04-30-2005, 10:07 PM | #104 |
Enting
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[QUOTE=inked]
I would say rather to conform the individual to the intent of the Creator...QUOTE] I must dissagree with this. The Almighty gave man compleat free will. Thus opening many pathes to the same truth. That is why there are so many different religions. If the Almighty wanted people to be conformed, the Almighty would do it. There'd be no need for another human to do it. We have free will for a reason, and that reason is to find our own way, not follow another's way.
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05-01-2005, 03:25 AM | #105 | ||
Elf Lord
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That these things should be taught is taken for granted. But if each person is supposed to "find their own way," why should you apply this only to God? Why do you apply it to God at all, may I ask? Virtually everything else is learned through trial and error.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-01-2005 at 03:31 AM. |
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05-01-2005, 10:40 PM | #106 | |
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=Narinya_Cocachitawa]
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That is precisely the Christian claim. The Almighty did it. It was in Judea, in Bethlehem, that the Almighty became Man. Then, just as the Apostle's Creed states it, he lived, was crucified, was Resurrected, Ascended, and sent the Comforter. When God was Man, He played by His own rules, and thought it well worthwhile. So there is one Truth and one Way. That's what Christianity claims. That is Whom we are to be conformed to, not a religion. Rather astonishing, eh!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-05-2005, 08:57 PM | #107 | |
Enting
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As for trial and error... That is exactly my point. Humans learn best from their mistakes and examples of others who have made mistakes. We all know this story. It happens to each and every one of us. The hot stove and the child. Who hasn't ever touched a hot stove before, whether by accident or out of defiance? The child has been warned many times that they'll be burned if they touch the stove while it's hot, and not to play near it while Mommy's cooking. Yet, even after being shown a nasty scar, the child persists in playing near the hot stove.This child is expressing free will by defying his parents. One day, he throws a ball at the pot handel thinking it would be fun to watch the food fall out (after all, he's only a little child). But he is sitting right beside the stove and boiling water/scalding food spills over onto him, burning his flesh. Now he can fully understand why he was told not to play near a hot stove. It is through trial and error that people learn. Animals learn through a very similar process, too. The Almighty Creator gave us free will so that we might find the way on our own. We choose whether or not to follow the teachings of religious figures such as Jesus, Muhammed, and Buddah. Each choice we make has a consequence followed by another choice. If we make a bad decision, we suffer a bad consequence followed by a more difficult choice. If we make a good decision, we can enjoy the consequences and have a simplear choice to face afterward. The better your decisions are, the clocer to the True Path you are. The worse your decisions, the farther from the Path you are. It may be one path, as you say, but there are many ways to walk it. Leaps and bounds, or baby steps. Free will and the ability to make the decisions for our self sets the pace, not the path that another human living here on earth sets before us. We each walk the path a little differently. No two people can comfortably step in the exact same place as the person before them. So, in a sence, it's many pathes to the same truth. As for "Why on earth should he be limited to acting only through visions or other supernatural appearances and meetings". Since when did I say that? I can understand that there are people that the Creator uses as tools for the greater good. That is the Creators way of doing it. but don't you think that these people chosen by the Creator would actually have heard the Creator's wish themselves in a way other than through religous texts? Writting such as the Bible are man made things. They were recorded by men. They were translated (often mistranslated) by men. Men interperate them daily. Men skip over things that challenge what they believe, choosing to ignore it rather than face the truth of it. They jump to texts such as Duteronomy 18:10 and compleatly skip over teaching such as thoes in 1 Corinthians 12 because they know it to be safe. "Supernatural" meetings do happen, and they are another way of expressing the Creator's will, though not always. I am of the personal belief that both the Creator and the Downfallen can speak to us, as well as the deceaced. Each individual of these that contact the living has their own story to tell, their own wishes of the person they speak to. Some are sent with messages from others such as the Creator and the Downfallen. Again, this goes back to free will, as well as the ability to judge others. It is your choice wheter or not you follow another's teachings of experience, or the lies of the Downfallen, or make your own way through life finding things out for yourself. You may choose to follow the lessons of a preacher. I am a minister's child myself, but I chose to learn from personal experinces as well as their own experiences. Some things they try to teach me from personal experience, I can't fully understand untill I've gone through it myself. I'd rather live and learn than live and not understand why i'm told not to do something. Some mistakes are going to be made no matter what you do.
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05-05-2005, 11:22 PM | #108 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, you speak of bad decisions and good decisions. Good or bad for what? For us? What is good or bad for us? Is good just to be at peace with ourselves? Is it happiness? Another question: how do you define what is good and what is bad? Many people define these very differently. Some people think one thing is bad, while others think it to be good. Are you saying there is good and evil that transcend people's opinions about it (For example, Nazis thought that brutalizing Jews was good. Was this good?) If they are morals that transcend human beliefs about them, how are we to know what precisely they are? Quote:
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One sidenote is that Jesus did say that reading texts is not going to bring eternal life by itself- it is knowing him that brings eternal life. So I do agree that reading isn't the key (though it can be used by God to lead to him). Quote:
Since when does this human failing mean that the scriptures are not divinely inspired, though? Quote:
About speaking to the deceased, what do you think of the possibility that evil spirits might impersonate the dead? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-05-2005 at 11:24 PM. |
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05-06-2005, 08:09 PM | #109 |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2005
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I "was" a Christian for the first 12 years of my life, yet I never understood it what-so-ever. What Narinya_Cocachitawa says makes more sense to me than the Christian religion ever has. please go poking holes into what others say and belief because you don't understand it.
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05-06-2005, 09:14 PM | #110 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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I would just like to point out that you shouldn't think of christianity based on what you did, or did not, understand at age 12. I mean... c'mon... that's the stage where you're still thinking about cute little bible stories and think that the 'fruit' of the garden was an apple.
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05-07-2005, 10:21 AM | #111 | |
Elf Lord
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How do you know it wasn't?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-07-2005, 04:29 PM | #112 | |
The Intermittent One
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05-07-2005, 05:15 PM | #113 |
Elf Lord
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The snake didn't give it to her, but it did trick her into taking it.
I do agree with you somewhat, though. It's possible to see the apple as a symbol, but I don't really see why one should. The subsequent scriptures are clear enough that Adam was one real flesh and blood person. The genealogies refer to him that way, and in the epistles Paul says that, "just as through one man, Adam, all the world sinned, so through one man, Jesus Christ, eternal life was given to all that would believe."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
05-07-2005, 06:21 PM | #114 |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2005
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In reponse to what you said, Tessar, I took a class called "World Religons" in school, which basicly was a fancy name for legal bible study in school, and I still can't understand it.
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05-08-2005, 12:47 AM | #115 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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As to the apple thing, it's considered very possible (and even likely) that the idea of the 'tree of life' and 'tree of knowledge' being actual trees and having real fruit on them is only a metaphor.
What many (myself included) believe is that the 'fruit of knowledge' had more to do with an immoral action that Adam/Eve were told not to do, and knew they shouldn't have, but did anyways because of the temptation of the devil. Because of that they were cast out of the direct grace of God (cast from the garden). Granted no one really KNOWS for sure, and you're allowed to believe that it was an apple if you like--heck you can believe it was a mango/banana hybrid if you want, so long as you understand the basic principle behind the teaching. And Rakkety--where did you take that bible class? Was it in a public school? I know some Catholics who went to bible classes in public schools, and found out later that the teachers weren't really teaching much of anything that had to do with actual Catholicism. When it comes to any kind of religion, I have no confidence whatsoever in the public or private school systems, unless they are actually a part of that religion. Even then many times you end up with teachers who don't understand their own religion. |
05-08-2005, 06:45 PM | #116 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-08-2005, 07:18 PM | #117 | |
Sapling
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05-11-2005, 12:21 AM | #118 | |
Elf Lord
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If you're arguing that the Jews didn't come up with it, I'd agree with you there too. Adam and Eve came before the Jews. Noah came before the Jews. The knowledge coming through Noah would have been heard by many. This doesn't mean it is literal, and it doesn't mean it isn't literal. It leaves it an open question, as far as I can see.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-11-2005 at 12:23 AM. |
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05-11-2005, 10:11 AM | #119 |
Elf Lord
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Well, the symbolic fruit has varied quite a bit. I personally think the pomegranate best. All those individual pips which suggest the varied nature of the temptations and the loss of time insisting on sampling each and every one before "deciding"! A powerful visual and tactile metaphor for the protean nature of temptation. Not to mention the individual's absorption with the process of engaging the opportunities. (Reminds me of vampires counting garlic seeds until sunrise and *poof* destruction!)
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-11-2005, 10:37 AM | #120 |
Word Santa Claus
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Medieval clergy always taught it was a persimmon. So opinions have, as inked says, varied. Probably didn't help that apples aren't believed to have grown anywhere near where Eden is located (ie Tigris/Euphrates area)
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