Egypt is the origin of Christianity, Judaism & Islam

[The Telcontarion]

Elfhelm, why don't you post the whole forum here for all to see. Why just a piece of it, if it is so convincing, towards your arguement?!!!

[HOBBIT]

oh you are one of the callers on that recording?

How far into are you? I'm not going to go searching for it, but if you tell me how many minutes in you are, I will listen to it.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

oh you are one of the callers on that recording?

How far into are you? I'm not going to go searching for it, but if you tell me how many minutes in you are, I will listen to it.

Exactly at 44:50 minuits in.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Elfhelm, why don't you post the whole forum here for all to see. Why just a piece of it, if it is so convincing, towards your arguement?!!!

You have concluded incorrectly. That post did not come from your master's forum. It came from another site. I chose de Greef because he is a respected writer in the field.

But frankly, BoP's refutation was sufficient for me.

Now answer this simple question.

Did the Ancient Egyptians speak Arabic? I would like a yes or no. But if you want to say more, please tell me what is the relationship between Ancient Egyptian and Arabic. I know what your master says. What do you say?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Here is a link to some of de Greef's own work. This is what I call scholarly.
http://www.catchpenny.org/thoth/3arch.htm

Is this the best you can do?

Again, why don't you post the whole forum...or should I?

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Which supports what I said yesterday.



And that's it. I hope this helps supports your case, BoP.

Thanks for posting that up Elfhelm. I think it is very clear however, that this thread is a dead-end.

Telcontarion, you can harp on all you like about the 'highly speculative' nature of egyptology, but the facts speak for themselves. I've yet to actually see you post up anything that resembles a fact. RE: the rosetta stone... huh? The problem with the language comes down to competing interpretations of the translations, not the actual transliteration itself. Transliteration is easy, it's interpreting the translations is where it becomes a little bit more problematic. And in any case, the reason you brought this up is because...? What? There's no two ways to dice it - the transliterations of nefertiti's and nefertari's names are clear. There's no 'Maryam' as you claimed. Your claim was false. Arguing about the rosetta stone doesn't make this any more or less correct.

Now, can you please further clarify what exactly you meant by stating that Tolkien was obviously drawing from the Egyptian language when he crafted names like Elendil? How does this make it so?

Gah, I don't know why I waste my time. You are clearly not even bothering to debate. You're not even addressing the points I've raised, ie the problematic timelines, the transliterations of the historical figures, etc, etc. You call that a needless debate, and I've yet to understand why you don't feel that these are valid points since they do in fact address your lovely little falsehoods drawn from that site.

Now, as far as my reading comprehension goes. Fine, you say you're not convinced of his arguments. Okay... so why are you posting them up here for us to 'change your mind'?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

You have concluded incorrectly. That post did not come from your master's forum. It came from another site. I chose de Greef because he is a respected writer in the field.

But frankly, BoP's refutation was sufficient for me.

Now answer this simple question.

Did the Ancient Egyptians speak Arabic? I would like a yes or no. But if you want to say more, please tell me what is the relationship between Ancient Egyptian and Arabic. I know what your master says. What do you say?

I don't have a master friend, he however is an expert with which I agree. An again, I have actually said this before here, arabic was only brought in when the arabs invaded. But was originally influenced by egypt as well as most modern languages, especially, wait for it...english!!! (I believe this, again I don't have a gun to your head)

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

You have concluded incorrectly. That post did not come from your master's forum. It came from another site. I chose de Greef because he is a respected writer in the field.

But frankly, BoP's refutation was sufficient for me.

Now answer this simple question.

Did the Ancient Egyptians speak Arabic? I would like a yes or no. But if you want to say more, please tell me what is the relationship between Ancient Egyptian and Arabic. I know what your master says. What do you say?

Then post the forum here, and I garauntee they are discussing alsadawi's theory, and while it does not orinate on his site, there is a link there to it.

Yes or no are they not discussing him, that's all I ask. Yes or no!!!

[Butterbeer]

dead end? (is that egyptian for erectile malfunction syndrome????)


EMS???

sort of a male PMS????

well, for what its worth i canna be bothered reading it all ... so what is all the beef about?

what is The Telcontarion (hello btw ) all het up about?

(ref, mods - and their ways - i, sadly, Tel would know little of them and their ways ... being a model good mooter and all .... but maybe ...may i suggest you have a nice cup of tea ...go on!! ah go on now!! have a nice cup of tea there!! El Tel


although i must say - i never knew you could actually EDIT a Mod's EDIT ...

[I]*Lil' o BB takes his hat off*[/I]



..probably not a great idea though???


er.... el tel, do you wear a sarong perchance? .... just wondering, like, as you seem to be attempting teach your (sexy) "grandmother" to suck eggs ....

(smooches at BoP ... well it's a phrase gorgeous ... you DO look younger!

[Elfhelm]

But you think the heiroglyphs should be read using modern Arabic words, just like the "expert" you believe despite every intelligent, clear, and authoritative disagreement that has been raised. Even though you admit that Arabic was not spoken in Egypt until 1600 years ago, you contend that spoken Arabic should be the foundation of any reading of the heiroglyphs. And it's just fine with you that the translations of glyphs written about 4,000 years ago translte into passages from the Bible and the Koran.

Dude, that's bunk. The Koran didn't even exist at the time.

You have not supported a single thing you maintain.

Do you think the Sphinx is a statue of Abraham? Yes or no.

[BeardofPants]

Let's do this :

1. that the colossal statue of what is known as 'Ramses-2' is in fact an Ancient Egyptian historical representation of the Egyptian Divine Prophet Moses

Nope. See what I posted previously cf timeline, and proper transliteration of Ramesses II name (R-ms-sw etc, etc).

2. The Great Sphinx is an Ancient Egyptian historical representation of the father of Prophets .. Abraham

Nope. See what Elfhelm posted up re: timelines.

3. temple Abu-Simbel is in fact the temple of Moses and Aaron .. known in traditional Egyptology as temple of (ra3-meses) it is one of the world wonders and lies in Egyptian Nubia at nearly 250 km south of Aswan the sun illuminates the sanctuary room twice a year to celebrate the two divine prophets Moses and Aaron Egyptologists say that the Pharaoh Rameses-II established this temple to prove that Egypt invaded Nubia and dominated its land, people and fortunes!!

Nope. Two things to mention here, one of which Elfhelm mentioned - when is it supposed that Moses campaigned in Nubia?! Secondly, again, that pesky timeline. Abu Simbel construction started approx 1284BC, and Moses was what? 1527BCE.

4. the so-called queen nefertari wife of the so-called ramses-2 is in fact mother of the holy Mary .. and wife of the prophet 3imran and grandmother of the holy Jesus .. they are all Ancient Egyptians!!

*headdesk* How does this work exactly? Ramesses II sired a great deal many children, and none of nefertari's came to the throne. Let alone grandkids. There are issues with the succession after Ramesses II, but what is clear is that the succession was from a union with Ramesses II and another wife, not between Ramesses II and Nefertari, the successor being Merneptah with HIS son Amenmesses likely following. The offspring of Nefetari did not achieve 'historical greatness', but faded into obscurity. These are Nefetari's children :

Prince Amun-her-khepeshef
Prince Pareherwenemef
Prince Meriatum
Prince Meryre
Princess Meritamen
Princess Henuttawy
Princess Beketmut (?)
Princess Nefertari (?)
Princess Nebettawy (?)

None of which look like a likely Maryam/Mary as claimed by the crackpot.

5. the so-called god Amun is in fact the eternal divine Prophet of Egypt .. Moses

So... lemme get this straight. Moses is not just a prophet now - he's the goddamned Sun God? Doesn't that directly conflict with that graven idol commandment that he was given on the that giant ruddy mountain?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

To Gwaimir Windgem

Actually I believe that I saw these references about his extensive study of history, I can't remember where as I have read many articles and essays.

Okay, so basically, this boils down to *Jedi Hand Wave* I read this somewhere...if you can't even provide a source for this, don't proclaim your highly extrapolated conclusions as fact.

As for your points, frankly, they are quite immature and ridiculous. Comparing Tolkiens invented language with russian and portiguess, languages evolved in the real world to a language, that is incomplete mind, that evolved in a fictitious world?

Well, shucks, I thought we were gonna try to be polite. I shouldn't have made those last minute changes to my post. I'll keep the rules of this game in mind in the future.

But anyway, you see here, class, the argument form, where you say some variant of "you are stupid", and thus by dismissing your opponent, eliminating the need to respond to what he actually said? It is very useful in propoganda.

I said I "surmised" that it was gleaned from egyptian written form not that it was a fact. Though I do believe it is, if I can find the reference.

You categorically stated: "Tolkien studied egyptian language extensively" at the top of page 2. If you are NOT proposing this as certain fact, do not formulate it as such.

Seriously if you are smart enough to post on this site you are smart enough to find out what false pride means. If I used the word tor'sion, would you ask me the meaning or would you...

My friend it is a fact OK, see link below and try to do some research so you actually know what you are talking about:

url]http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13258[/url]

[aside]And here you see again, children, the ad hominen argument. It seems to be this specimen's speciality[/quote]

I have done plenty of reading on Tolkien; I do believe I have a fair grasp on the man and his work as a whole, and I see no reason to believe that he intentionally designed the work to be this or to be that, aside from a story. Of course, he saw many major themes running through it (the three I remember him writing of were Death and Immortality, Machine, and the sole right of God to divine honour), but that was after it was written. I recall no indication that during the actual writing, he intended to use the book as an ambo. If you have an authoritative source which indicates otherwise, then name it, and I will concede the point. Merely pointing me to your research paper and insulting me will not do the trick, however.

What I want to know is what is your point here, and how does this relate to the thread. I made those statements in explaining other more relivant points to the issue at hand. Yet you have latched on to this and are hanging for dear life, with your teeth

My point is that I see no serious reason to believe that Tolkien studied Egyptology or Egyptian language extensively; the relation to the thread is that you brought it up to support your proclamations. I am concerned with the search for Truth, and the general topic seems to be well-handled by those more competent than I.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

er.... el tel, do you wear a sarong perchance? .... just wondering, like, as you seem to be attempting teach your (sexy) "grandmother" to suck eggs ....

(smooches at BoP ... well it's a phrase gorgeous ... you DO look younger!

Yo BB! *huggles* Well, as long as I'm the SEXY grandmother! Y'know, there are actually a lot of penises in the hieroglyphic language. (In fact a lot of words associated with words like 'great' have penises in them ).

[Butterbeer]

blimey o'reilly international peops ... 'ere, have a kebab already!
BoP ..calm the **** down ....

just cus' you know stuff don't mean ya should 'do the natural' on new posters wot 'ave thought-provoking (presumably - ?? ) ideas ...???

heh, i remember when i was new to this form of web based forum communication ... i went a bit doo-lalley with mod decisions and stuff ...but you live and learn and you get a more rounded view with experience ...

...give the guy a chance already!

best, BB x

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If thought-provoking and headdesk-provoking are the same thing...

[The Telcontarion]

BeardofPants
Thanks for posting that up Elfhelm. I think it is very clear however, that this thread is a dead-end.

Why, because you say so.

Telcontarion, you can harp on all you like about the 'highly speculative' nature of egyptology, but the facts speak for themselves. I've yet to actually see you post up anything that resembles a fact. RE: the rosetta stone... huh? The problem with the language comes down to competing interpretations of the translations, not the actual transliteration itself. Transliteration is easy, it's interpreting the translations is where it becomes a little bit more problematic. And in any case, the reason you brought this up is because...? What? There's no two ways to dice it - the transliterations of nefertiti's and nefertari's names are clear. There's no 'Maryam' as you claimed. Your claim was false. Arguing about the rosetta stone doesn't make this any more or less correct.

Again why, because you say so? I have no facts...your talking facts when it comes to theories. Again simply dismissing me and my arguements with nothing but your word? I have produced experts and there opinions, all you do is swagger around, run your mouth off as if your word and your word alone is enough to convince anyone that you are right. Give me references to what you just said, Ok, I garauntee you can't.

Now, can you please further clarify what exactly you meant by stating that Tolkien was obviously drawing from the Egyptian language when he crafted names like Elendil? How does this make it so?

Now you want to draw this back all the way to the Elendil issue? Why are you doing that, because you can't debate me on the issue at hand? Everything you mentioned I have already explained. "Crafted names like Elendil?" I never said that, please quote me.

Gah, I don't know why I waste my time. You are clearly not even bothering to debate. You're not even addressing the points I've raised, ie the problematic timelines, the transliterations of the historical figures, etc, etc. You call that a needless debate, and I've yet to understand why you don't feel that these are valid points since they do in fact address your lovely little falsehoods drawn from that site.

When have I ever said these things are irrelivant please quote me. I think you are saying these things because you are subconsciously admitting that they are. Again, please quote me.

Now, as far as my reading comprehension goes. Fine, you say you're not convinced of his arguments. Okay... so why are you posting them up here for us to 'change your mind'?

Your reading comprehension? - I don't understand that last bit. As for the rest, I think it clear why I have posted it here, so I can glean other opinions, so I can make a better judgement of the material. Alos to see if there has been other people on this site that is faamiliar with this material.

I really don't get you, give me the quotes I have asked for ok buddy. Becasue your are very combatitive and confrontational. You behave like this is such a chore, why are you here; give, me, the, quotes

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I am concerned with the search for Truth, and the general topic seems to be well-handled by those more competent than I.

*BB Bows*

.. an' heh i ain't even read this stuff yet ... but thanks all the same Gwai !

[The Telcontarion]

This to Gwaimir Windgem

What I want to know is what is your point here, and how does this relate to the thread. I made those statements in explaining other more relivant points to the issue at hand. Yet you have latched on to this and are hanging for dear life, with your teeth.

So the point is this, the thread is called, Egypt is the origin of Christianity, Judaism & Islam ok, not tolkiens writings-"I made those statements in explaining other more relivant points to the issue at hand"-so if you are not going to address this issue, I recommend you have a nice day and not waste your time.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

But you think the heiroglyphs should be read using modern Arabic words, just like the "expert" you believe despite every intelligent, clear, and authoritative disagreement that has been raised. Even though you admit that Arabic was not spoken in Egypt until 1600 years ago, you contend that spoken Arabic should be the foundation of any reading of the heiroglyphs. And it's just fine with you that the translations of glyphs written about 4,000 years ago translte into passages from the Bible and the Koran.

Dude, that's bunk. The Koran didn't even exist at the time.

You have not supported a single thing you maintain.

Do you think the Sphinx is a statue of Abraham? Yes or no.

I said no such thing, he does no use arabic. Ancient egyptian, while is no longer written by the layperson in egypt it is still spoken, that is what alsadawi uses. Yes i do believe that the sphinx is Abraham. You have made no point.

Again, post the whole forum as I asked for the 4th time!!!!! Stop dudging?!!!

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Let's do this :



Nope. See what I posted previously cf timeline, and proper transliteration of Ramesses II name (R-ms-sw etc, etc).




Nope. See what Elfhelm posted up re: timelines.



Nope. Two things to mention here, one of which Elfhelm mentioned - when is it supposed that Moses campaigned in Nubia?! Secondly, again, that pesky timeline. Abu Simbel construction started approx 1284BC, and Moses was what? 1527BCE.



*headdesk* How does this work exactly? Ramesses II sired a great deal many children, and none of nefertari's came to the throne. Let alone grandkids. There are issues with the succession after Ramesses II, but what is clear is that the succession was from a union with Ramesses II and another wife, not between Ramesses II and Nefertari, the successor being Merneptah with HIS son Amenmesses likely following. The offspring of Nefetari did not achieve 'historical greatness', but faded into obscurity. These are Nefetari's children :

Prince Amun-her-khepeshef
Prince Pareherwenemef
Prince Meriatum
Prince Meryre
Princess Meritamen
Princess Henuttawy
Princess Beketmut (?)
Princess Nefertari (?)
Princess Nebettawy (?)

None of which look like a likely Maryam/Mary as claimed by the crackpot.



So... lemme get this straight. Moses is not just a prophet now - he's the goddamned Sun God? Doesn't that directly conflict with that graven idol commandment that he was given on the that giant ruddy mountain?

None of this is fact. These are guesses at best. Where is your references, I want to see them, again I ak for the last time!!!!