Abortion and Handguns

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by emplynx
Some questions for pro-choicers:

• For my own interest, how do you feel about partial birth abortion?
• How would you feel if I stepoed on and crushed an eagle's egg? (that is a crime...)
• How would you feel if I gave a pregnent whale or dolphin medication that would kill it's fetus?

Stepping on an eagle's egg and killing a whales fetus is a crime because they are indangered species. These are silly examples to compare to human abortion which is an act within the human race, between humans. You don't see eagles and whales performing abortions on humans and anyone that would do to a whale or eagle what you are suggesting is criminal, because it is not for the purpose of sparing the unborn from a brutal life, or from parents that do not want it, or as a favor to the mother to spare her life. It would be a criminal and disgusting act because the mothers of those creatures had no choice, and they do not have free will. Last time I heard, humans still ruled the world.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Silverstripe
You know what strikes me as very interesting about these babies and small children living in horrible conditions? Some pro-choicers think they'd be better off dead, correct? Yet if someone, for the sake of "mercy," intentionally kills a child after he/she is born, WHATEVER conditions they are living under, it is still considered murder.

It is another matter after a child is born and being raised in horrid conditions. There is a big diffence in saying they would be better off dead, compared to saying it would have been better had they never been born. I just love how the (right to lifers) like to take things out of context to try to invalidate the views of the (pro-choicers)

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Stepping on an eagle's egg and killing a whales fetus is a crime because they are indangered species.

OK [sarcasm again] it's ok to kill humans because we have pleaty of them. Is that what your saying?

[isthatbad!]

i think that unwanted babies should die. maybe with one of those handguns you speak of.

[isthatbad!]

Originally posted by emplynx
OK [sarcasm again] it's ok to kill humans because we have pleaty of them. Is that what your saying?

of course it's ok to kill humans. but it is like any other hunt. eat what you kill
isthatbad?!

[emplynx]

Originally posted by isthatbad!
i think that unwanted babies should die. maybe with one of those handguns you speak of.

If you feel that way, there's no arguing with you...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
OK, I see your logic. So if I ever have a child who is abot 3 years old and very ill, I won't see any problem with discarding this bunch of cells even if at one point he may grow into a healthy human being. [sarcasm]That makes complete sence.[/sarcasm]

It's ignorant of you to make a claim like that and twist what I said. Sorry if you disagree with me not seeing any problem with aborting a fetus when it is just a clump of cells. To say that I am advocating killing a child after it is born is ignorant and a stupid argument against what I said.

First of all there are several differences...
1) the child is outside the mother and has physically been born and is a unigue individual.
2) the child has feelings - unlike a clump of cells that have only just started developing.

By the way - there are tons of Christians that don't believe in giving their children medical attention and taking them to a doctor. One case happened while I was in Oregon. Some people say that is tantamount to killing a child - others claim it's an issue of freedom of religion (putting their trust in God).

[emplynx]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

First of all there are several differences...
1) the child is outside the mother and has physically been born and is a unigue individual.
2) the child has feelings - unlike a clump of cells that have only just started developing.

A child inside the mother is a unique human being!! It's not just part of the mother, it's a separate child!!
A child in the womb has feelings! They react to pain. They react to sound! They are people!

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry if you disagree with me not seeing any problem with aborting a fetus when it is just a clump of cells.

All people are just "clumps of cells"! Clumps of cells that make human beings!

Originally posted by jerseydevil
By the way - there are tons of Christians that don't believe in giving their children medical attention and taking them to a doctor. One case happened while I was in Oregon. Some people say that is tantamount to killing a child - others claim it's an issue of freedom of religion (putting their trust in God).

That is child abuse. It's not freedom of religion, atleast not the religion I have. It's not Biblical at all for them to do that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
A child inside the mother is a unique human being!! It's not just part of the mother, it's a separate child!!
A child in the womb has feelings! They react to pain. They react to sound! They are people!

They can't react to pain, sounds or anything until their spinal cord is formed. So I guess your saying until then they're not human. In which case - as I have said - I support abortion up to that moment. I DO NOT nor have I EVER supported partial birth abortions unless the mother's life is in danger or their is something seriously wrong with the child - which is what you describe.

I'm beginning to wonder if you even know how a baby forms in the mother's womb. You go right to partial birth abortions as your argument against abortions, as if at the moment of conception that is what a fetus would looks like. That doesn't start occuring until the later 3rd month and into the 2nd trimester. I support abortion in the first trimester.

That is child abuse. It's not freedom of religion, atleast not the religion I have. It's not Biblical at all for them to do that.

Well they view it differently - they feel that a person's life is in God's hands and shouldn't be tampered with through science. I guess we all have our little lines we won't step over. Just like I don't feel that destorying a bunch of cells that have not developed a nervous system to allow a fetus to feel ANYTHING is not wrong or killing, whereas you do.

[emplynx]

[not sarcasm] OK JD. I see your reasoning. Are you saying that any "fetus" without a nervous system isn't a human being"?

[emplynx]

Again with thanks to Randy Alcorn

At eighteen days after conceptoion the heart is forming, and the eyes start to develop. By twenty-one days the heart is not only beating, but pumping blood throughout the body

Do you hear that! By 21 days the heart is beating! This is before almost all women even know they are pregnant. This is before almost all abortions take place.
So if the heart is beating, just what is it that doesn't make it human. And if it's not human, what is it?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
Again with thanks to Randy Alcorn

Do you hear that! By 21 days the heart is beating! This is before almost all women even know they are pregnant. This is before almost all abortions take place.
So if the heart is beating, just what is it that doesn't make it human. And if it's not human, what is it?

yes but the heart beating is the most basic of functions. And I do agree that it is a human being in the MAKING. Do I feel that it is wrong to abort it at this point? NO I do not. It still does not have an established brain (which is TRULY what sets humans apart from other animals) or an established nervous system that can feel pain.

So are you against the morning after pill? or stem cell research. None of the embryos under these two scenarios have reached anywhere near the point to what you use as your argument against abortion.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So are you against the morning after pill? or stem cell research. None of the embryos under these two scenarios have reached anywhere near the point to what you use as your argument against abortion.

Yes and yes (baby stem cells, not adults).
I have reached these with my arguement, but you don't want to hear it (which I can't blame you. I dont' want to hear your argument either.)
Upon the sperm and egg mixing, a human child if formed. I did show you that with all the quotes from scientists and text books. Do you believe that all those scientists are wrong?

[Wayfarer]

Good heavens no! How could all of those scientists possibly be wrong? ]: )

But, honestly, I would like to know how jersydevil qualifies what is human or not... because I know quite a few people without backbones, and I don't waste time trying to aborth them!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
Yes and yes (baby stem cells, not adults).
I have reached these with my arguement, but you don't want to hear it (which I can't blame you. I dont' want to hear your argument either.)
Upon the sperm and egg mixing, a human child if formed. I did show you that with all the quotes from scientists and text books. Do you believe that all those scientists are wrong?

I believe at that point that a human embryo has formed - not a human child. Also there are tons of doctors that will support my position - so just throwing out quotes from doctors does not necessarily make scientific fact. We all have our own beliefs and there are many doctors that disagree with abortion - but as at the same thime there are also many that support it. A human child does start to form at the time of conception - but that is all.

Abortion is more of a religious issue than a medical one. And wether or not abortion is availalbe in the hospital or not - you nor anyone else is going to prevent a woman from having one. There is always the dark alleys and the, to put it bluntly, the coat hanger method. I'd rather give a woman the option to have an abortion, within limits, than to have them resort to that.

And in regards to stem cell resource - billions of people can be helped through these types of studies.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Good heavens no! How could all of those scientists possibly be wrong? ]: )

But, honestly, I would like to know how jersydevil qualifies what is human or not... because I know quite a few people without backbones, and I don't waste time trying to aborth them!

I didn't say backbone - I said well formed nervous system where the fetus can feel pain. This also then requires a "basic" brain (the animal section) being formed.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Abortion is more of a religious issue than a medical one. And wether or not abortion is availalbe in the hospital or not - you nor anyone else is going to prevent a woman from having one. There is always the dark alleys and the, to put it bluntly, the coat hanger method. I'd rather give a woman the option to have an abortion, within limits, than to have them resort to that.

I don't believe it's religious as much as ethical. Regarding the "coathanger method"-
There is always going to be dark street corners where murders take place, the, to put it bluntly, the gun to head method. [sarcasm] I'd rather give a person an option to murder someone, within limits, than to have them resort to that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
I don't believe it's religious as much as ethical. Regarding the "coathanger method"-
There is always going to be dark street corners where murders take place, the, to put it bluntly, the gun to head method. [sarcasm] I'd rather give a person an option to murder someone, within limits, than to have them resort to that.

yeah - I see how killing a fully conscious living human is the same as aborting a fetus that is only a few days or a month into development. [DEEP SACRASM]

Sorry but unlike you where it's a nothing proposition - I have come to a middle ground. I went to Catholic school - we were taught that abortion was wrong. Of course for their arguments they only used pictures of aborted fetuses that would be today called "partial birth abortions". This si the same argument you have made repeatedly - that the "fetus moves away from the needle", that the "fetus feels pain". I still contend that at that stage it is wrong and should be restricted. So up to that point I agree with you. Prior to that I do not.

[Lizra]

If you have an abortion, at ANY stage, you are stopping a life. I equate stopping a life with killing something. How is it different? Or do you not think that a fertilized egg is "a life". If it's growth cycle is not interupted, the genetic code is there for a new and unique human being to form. If you abort this, a life has been ended. Let's see the hairs split here!

[Wayfarer]

Jersydevil... I would like to hear why, exactly, you think a fetus is not human, and what, exactly, you think it is?

I do not believe that the degree of development has any bearing on the value of life. Is a newborn less important than a five-year old? Is a five year old less importand than a teenager? They are fundamentally the same human being.