How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Butterbeer]

No, those were a gift to Elendil, who was the heir of the Lords of Andúnië. The Witch-king was from the House of Elros.

evidence for this? (just curious how you are SO sure...)

best, BB

[Alcuin]

Our prey, Butterbeer…? Well, we are on a hunt, aren’t we? “The Hunt for the Nazgûl Who Hunted the Ring�?

An historian, however, must back up his speculation with logic, reason, and evidence. Unless we can find more material from Tolkien – and one of Gordis’ triumphs is the quote found Hammond by Scully – we are still speculating.
-|-
Edit - posts are coming so fast, it’s hard to keep up...

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

evidence for this? (just curious how you are SO sure...)

best, BB

Now, now. You are forgetting your basic LoTR. Two Towers, “The Palantir�:

Aragorn [said,] ‘There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the palantir of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it.’
Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.
‘Receive it, lord!’ he said: ‘in earnest of other things that shall be given back. …

Unfinished Tales, “The PalantÃ*riâ€�:

These Stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right

(So who gave Elrond permission to take the stone from the Tower Hills back into the West? Aragorn?)

[Gordis]

Alcuin, I haven't thought about Tom spilling the secret of the WK identity out to Men of Cardolan...

Possible, but would he know or even be interested in the Mannish sorcery such as enspelled blade-making

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think I’d like to argue here that Elrond, CÃ*rdan, and Glorfindel, who had all participated in the War of the Last Alliance (assuming Glorfindel arrive in the Second Age) and were “in the know,â€� as well as the rulers and sages of Arnor and Gondor, had a reasonably good chance of knowing who the three Númenórean Nazgûl were.

I am SURE all the Wise DID know the identity of the three Numenoreans. Elrond probably never let the secret out, not even to the rulers of Arnor.

But what about Glorfindel?
By the way, I even argued at length that Glorfy must have been PERSONALLY acquainted with the Witch-King back in the Second Age, when they fought side by side in the War of 1697-1700 against Sauron. We have no data, but the timeline fits nicely.

One reading the LOTR and Appendices gets a feeling that the WK and Glorfy are connected somehow.

Why would Glorfindel have a prophetic vision about the fate of a complete stranger?
Why did the WK run away when seing Glorfy?
More importantly why hadn't Glorfindel attempted to follow the Witch King after the battle of Fornost to get rid of him himself? He was no Man ...

[Butterbeer]

with respect Alcuin, .. and may i say i am prepared to provisionallly give it here gladly ...

you either miss the nuances of my point or try to fob me off on a funny side-track ...

my point is there is a FINITE wealth of evidential Tolkien ...after all he was mortal and died ...

but his work lives on to some small degree here with us ... if we say that there can be no debate about his living works without solid historical fact ... then why debate?

The point, to me, here, is that it is open for interpretation ... simply because Tolkien himself was continually revising and trying to fathom and create a fuller, more detailed more coherrent and visceral world for us all.

what do we do here?

if not continue that tradition and respect his life's work with thought and questions and theories ... in a way he would be immortally proud of?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Our prey, Butterbeer…? Well, we are on a hunt, aren’t we? “The Hunt for the Nazgûl Who Hunted the Ring�?

An historian, however, must back up his speculation with logic, reason, and evidence. Unless we can find more material from Tolkien – and one of Gordis’ triumphs is the quote found Hammond by Scully – we are still speculating.
-|-
Edit - posts are coming so fast, it’s hard to keep up...

Now, now. You are forgetting your basic LoTR. Two Towers, “The Palantir�:

Unfinished Tales, “The PalantÃ*riâ€�:

(So who gave Elrond permission to take the stone from the Tower Hills back into the West? Aragorn?)

I forget nothing. But what means this?

You claim now that Aragorn knew beyond the wise the identity of the Witch King?

Else, it is clearly meaningless.

best, BB

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But what about Glorfindel?
By the way, I even argued at length that Glorfy must have been PERSONALLY acquainted with the Witch-King back in the Second Age, when they fought side by side in the War of 1697-1700 against Sauron. We have no data, but the timeline fits nicely.

One reading the LOTR and Appendices gets a feeling that the WK and Glorfy are connected somehow.

Why would Glorfindel have a prophetic vision about the fate of a complete stranger?
Why did the WK run away when seing Glorfy?
More importantly why hadn't Glorfindel attempted to follow the Witch King after the battle of Fornost to get rid of him himself? He was no Man ...

Yes, that makes sense. They could have been friends and comrades at one point. It would explain why the Witch-king fled from Glorfindel, it would explain why Glorfindel would not follow him, and it would explain why he had so much insight into his ultimate demise: Glorfindel saw ahead for him in the same way that Aragorn saw ahead for Elrond (“ ‘…Lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last…’�) and for Gandalf at the entrance to Moria…

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

You claim now that Aragorn knew beyond the wise the identity of the Witch King?

Else, it is clearly meaningless.

best, BB

I have made no such claim. If by error I have made this claim, I hastily withdraw it! Elrond and the Wise, perhaps, knew his identity; and maybe the Men of the West at the end of the Second Age; but I have made no such claim for Aragorn. I am prepared to accept the notion of Gordis that Glorfindel knew him: that makes sense to me, even without further proof, because in my opinion, it deepens and enriches the tale. But I do not believe I have made any claim that Aragorn knew the identity of the Witch-king.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Yes, that makes sense. They could have been friends and comrades at one point. It would explain why the Witch-king fled from Glorfindel, it would explain why Glorfindel would not follow him, and it would explain why he had so much insight into his ultimate demise: Glorfindel saw ahead for him in the same way that Aragorn saw ahead for Elrond (“ ‘…Lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last…’�) and for Gandalf at the entrance to Moria…

Exactly, people tend to make prophesies about kin, or friends, or beloved, but not about complete strangers.

Now, perhaps, to protect himself against magic, the WK himself tried to keep his real name secret. Seing Glorfindel, he may have been dismayed ALSO because Glorfindel was able to recognise him and tell his name to others.

I think, the Dunedain and the Wise first learned he was A nazgul, but didn't know which one... Then the complete certainty came at Fornost.

[Butterbeer]

post #102 ref: the heir of the palantir question and your 'evidence' that the WK was not / could not be .... this 'theory' subsequently supported by on a quote from Aragorn in the Two towers ... which, since you now withdraw it as useless evidence is clearly not a valid point.

best, BB

[jammi567]

correct me if i'm wrong on this, but i don't think an elf re-incarnative, having lived in valinor for however long, would willingly want to join a mortal army, even if their king did practice sorcery. i mean, in tolkiens world, i believe that that would make him look pathetic, especially in the eyes of gil-galad.

[Gordis]

The quote Alcuin posted proves that Palantiri belonged to the Line of Elendil.
Now the Witch kimg was not a descendant of Elendil (for obvious reasons).
Therefore he had no right to the Palantiri and no rightful claim to Arnor& Gondor founded by Elendil anf his heirs.

But of course, being of the main line of Elros, he considered himself heir to the Kings of Numenor and claimed the kingship of all the Numenoreans in exile, Dunedain included.

As I said, regarding the kingship, it is an impossible question from the Real Life POV : suppose Charlemagne's wraith came to claim the throne of France from Louis XiV? Who has more right???

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Exactly, people tend to make prophesies about kin, or friends, or beloved, but not about complete strangers.

Now, perhaps, to protect himself against magic, the WK himself tried to keep his real name secret. Seing Glorfindel, he may have been dismayed ALSO because Glorfindel was able to recognise him and tell his name to others.

I think, the Dunedain and the Wise first learned he was A nazgul, but didn't know which one... Then the complete certainty came at Fornost.

The Wise must have realized soon after Dol Guldur arose about III 1000 that the Nazgûl were active again. Although “Appendix A� would imply that the Dúnedain did not know about the Nazgûl until after the Great Plague in 1636, I think that is only in regard to the Dúnedain of Gondor, for it then says, “in the days of Eärnil they made their first stroke,� and took Minas Ithil: the Wise and the Dúnedain of Arnor must already have been aware of the Witch-king’s nature; and surely Galadriel was not deceived about the presence of Nazgûl in Dol Guldur; but perhaps I am wrong, and all these things did not come to light until after the fall of Minas Ithil. That would be the strictest interpretation; but I don’t think I am in agreement with the strictest interpretation here.

[Butterbeer]

well, jammi on the logic you put forth, consider that a 'correct me' !

best BB

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The quote Alcuin posted proves that Palantiri belonged to the Line of Elendil.
Now the Witch kimg was not a descendant of Elendil (for obvious reasons).
Therefore he had no right to the Palantiri and no rightful claim to Arnor& Gondor founded by Elendil anf his heirs.

But of course, being of the main line of Elros, he considered himself heir to the Kings of Numenor and claimed the kingship of all the Numenoreans in exile, Dunedain included.

As I said, regarding the kingship, it is an impossible question from the Real Life POV : suppose Charlemagne's wraith came to claim the throne of France from Louis XiV? Who has more right???

But Gor does then not the line of whom we think the WK is, not go beyond in lineage in terms of rights to the Kingship beyond any claim of Elendil prior to the massacre of Numenor innocent and guilty alike?

(correct me if i am wrong but have you not yourself not argued this very thing elsewhere?)

best, BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

correct me if i'm wrong on this, but i don't think an elf re-incarnative, having lived in valinor for however long, would willingly want to join a mortal army, even if their king did practice sorcery. i mean, in tolkiens world, i believe that that would make him look pathetic, especially in the eyes of gil-galad.

Jammi, you really have to read the Unfinished Tales.

in SA 1695 Sauron attacked Celebrimbor, sacked Hollin, took the Rings and overrun Eriador, beseiging Elrond in Imladris and Gil-Galad in Lindon.
Glorfindel was said to come to ME from Valinor via Numenor, on a Numenorean ship. A great fleet was sent from Numenor to aid Gil-Galad in 1697 SA. Most likely, Glorfindel came then, to aid Elves in ME attacked by Sauron. As for the Witch-King, it is very likely he was in this fleet, maybe even was the head of the Numenorean army. It was certainly BEFORE he got the Ring.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

post #102 ref: the heir of the palantir question and your 'evidence' that the WK was not / could not be .... this 'theory' subsequently supported by on a quote from Aragorn in the Two towers ... which, since you now withdraw it as useless evidence is clearly not a valid point.

best, BB

WHOA! Post #102 regards the ownership of the palantÃ*ri. The Witch-king was no descendant of Elendil, that is clear: and “the stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs.â€� That is why Aragorn was able to wrest control of the Orthanc-stone from Sauron: he was the rightful Heir of Elendil, and so rightfully High-King of the Númenóreans and king of both Arnor and Gondor. I stand by that post.

That says nothing about whether the Witch-king was really “Elvis son of Tar-Minastir, Prince of Armenelos� and Aragorn did or did not know it. You seem to think I had made that claim, and I have not, and I do not now.

I don’t understand what you are saying, Butterbeer. I can’t see the connection between being the rightful Heir of Elendil, thereby having claim to an “inalienable gift� made to your forefather, and knowing the identity of the Witch-king. Is this a misunderstanding, or can you fill in the missing pieces?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Jammi, you really have to read the Unfinished Tales.

Ah, Gordis, i have read it three times, but i've had so much on my mind lately (GCSE's for the past two years), that it practically drove everything to do with tolkein out of my head, so i may be hazy or forgettable of most things.

[Butterbeer]

just to clarify .... does it not go with everything Tolkien everwrote in terms of Kingship and rights and lineage and royalty as an englishman that were the WK the true heir prior to Elendil post the massacre of the west on Numenor, that in the spirit and law of both the world created by JRR and his thoughts, that IF the WK is potentially the true King, then he would be able to master BY RIGHT the palantir???

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

WHOA! Post #102 regards the ownership of the palantÃ*ri. The Witch-king was no descendant of Elendil, that is clear: and “the stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs.â€� That is why Aragorn was able to wrest control of the Orthanc-stone from Sauron: he was the rightful Heir of Elendil, and so rightfully High-King of the Númenóreans and king of both Arnor and Gondor. I stand by that post.

That says nothing about whether the Witch-king was really “Elvis son of Tar-Minastir, Prince of Armenelos� and Aragorn did or did not know it. You seem to think I had made that claim, and I have not, and I do not now.

I don’t understand what you are saying, Butterbeer. I can’t see the connection between being the rightful Heir of Elendil, thereby having claim to an “inalienable gift� made to your forefather, and knowing the identity of the Witch-king. Is this a misunderstanding, or can you fill in the missing pieces?

you seem fixxated on Elendil .. is not the point that he had no true right to the throne? The question is DID as GOR thinks the WK have that right?

best BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

But Gor does then not the line of whom we think the WK is, not go beyond in lineage in terms of rights to the Kingship beyond any claim of Elendil prior to the massacre of Numenor innocent and guilty alike?

(correct me if i am wrong but have you not yourself not argued this very thing elsewhere?)

best, BB

Aragorn he was the rightful Heir of Elendil, and so rightfully High-King of the Númenóreans and king of both Arnor and Gondor. I stand by that post.

It is like a question, which was first: a hen or an egg...

I think the WK had good reasons to consider himself the Rightful King of Numenoreans. I believe, the Black Numenoreans, if they knew who the WK was, certainly accepted his claim.
But Gondor and Arnor were founded later, by Elendil, and therefore belonged to his sons and their sons.

So... well I don't know. Difficult legal issue.