05-09-2003, 11:13 AM | #101 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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And willingly would I dispense
With false accouterments of sense, To sleep immodestly, a most Incarnadine and carnal ghost. Psycho Kitty, you obviously don't want to understand what anybody else is saying. Nobody here dislikes gollum. Nobody here begrudges your admiration of him, or wants you to look down on him. The only dissagreement there is is with the reasons you have stated. Had you simply said "I want to be like gollum" there would be no controversy here today. You have repeatedly made claims that it is impossible to support with the text. You have acted as though gollum was somehow content, at peace, even happy. He was not. You have made reference to seeing gollum as a 'pure animal'. He was not. He was a corrupt animal, and more than that he was a self-aware animal. Even his natural instincts had been twisted by the ring, robbing him of whatever simplicity his life might have had. I can, to some degree, understand what you're getting at. When gollum and smeagol discuss what they would do with the ring, they decide that they will go to the sea and eat their fill of fish. Truly a simple thing, but it is smeagol, the good portion of his being, that desires it. Gollum desires only the ring.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
05-09-2003, 11:32 AM | #102 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
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Quote:
and the rags of my anatomy. and as for gollum ok if you want to call him "the corrupted animal" then thats fine. that can work. i really think your definition of corrupted animal and my definition of pure animal are the same. so we are just really arguing over words now. but my concept remains. obviously it was the ring that made him the creature he is but thats just fine. give me the ring then and let me follow into the footsteps of his isolation and the twisting of his psyche and ill be a happy little girl. oh sorry! i wont be happy because you say i wont be happy. so i guess ill be happy in my unhappyness. hows that.
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-10-2003, 12:13 AM | #103 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
The above was not meant to be serious, but a demonstration that the sword swings both ways. Quote:
Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-10-2003, 02:18 AM | #104 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
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Quote:
I think the quote boils down to whether Gollum and Smeagol are separable, and I think Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. (See azalea's post above.) And, Psycho Kitty, it doesn't bother me if you like Gollum, he is certainly an interesting character. You are free to have your own opinions. Nobody's disputing that.
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Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Last edited by cassiopeia : 05-10-2003 at 02:20 AM. |
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05-12-2003, 10:55 AM | #105 | ||
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
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Quote:
Quote:
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-15-2003, 05:42 AM | #106 | |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1
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I have several problems with physcokitty's arguments.
Quote:
Smeagol went fishing with Deagol. Deagol found the ring. Smeagol murdered Deagol because he wanted the ring. Smeagollum continued to live amongst his family, using the ring to spy on them, until his grandmother cast him out because he was causing lots of trouble. Smeagollum wandered for a while, until he found the mountains to get away from the sun and the moon - and because he thought he would find deep, great secrets in their roots. Smeagollum gradually morphed into Gollum, with the occasional hint of Smeagol. Bilbo gets the ring. Gollum goes in seach of the ring. He did not choose to leave. He was cast out by his grandmother, because he used his new powers of invisibility to spy on his family, and caused much trouble. He went to the mountains to escaoe the sun and moon. He wanted the darkness. He thought the mountains would have secrets he could find out. The ring destroyed him. It ate at him. There's a bit where it says that at first he could not bear to have it not with him, then that he could not bear to have it away but couldn't bear to have it touching him, and then he could not bear to have it with him, but he couldn't leave it alone. Does this sound like a relaxed, content existance? But I think the most telling bit is: "He hated and loved it, as he hated and loved himself." (something like that, don't have the exact quote.) How can someone who hates themself have a contented existence. Smeagol and Gollum do not exist independatly of each other, they are each other and always will be. You cannot have Gollum without Smeagol. |
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05-15-2003, 11:42 AM | #107 |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
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so then is your argument that being alone in the caves was the worse situation for him? and that he should have lived like a silly little hobbit all happy and social? which situation do you think would have allowed him to relax more? he would have been tortured by the ring either way. i say he WAS more content in the caves and the darkness alone and far away from everyone then he ever could be in any other situation. i say without interference from the hobbit baggins he would have remained like that unless saurons little minions had finally caught up to the ring before a war had destroyed the evil forces on middle earth. you very well could have had a big war where no ring was involved and it was assumed lost by both sides. and gollum would have it all the time.
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
05-15-2003, 01:31 PM | #108 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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Well, you COULD live as an unsocial hobbit hermit, but that's beside the point, I know.
Your post got me thinking that maybe Gollum didn't seek out others or ever try to go back in part because way deep down he knew that by interacting he would end up killing again and didn't want that (the Smeagol part, if you wish). I don't know, it's just a thought. I tend to think of characters optimistically. |
05-15-2003, 03:57 PM | #109 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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Naw! As a puppet and slave to the Ring, he went underground because the Ring wanted him to, that's all.
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cya |
05-15-2003, 04:19 PM | #110 |
Lord of the Pants
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,382
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I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again - Tolkien thought that Smeagol could be redeemed - which implies that Smeagol wasn't happy with being an outcast, and a loner.
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05-16-2003, 10:56 AM | #111 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
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Quote:
i dont think it was just about wanting to avoid killing. i mean he still killed goblins and would be more then happy to kill other things that happened to stumble into his den. maybe MAYBE there was some lingering subconcious thing going on there but i think the main motivation was just to get away from bothersome annoying people and be alone in a dark sanctuary where all he had to deal with was himself and this glorious and horrible ring. but it was all his. and thats all that mattered to him.
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-16-2003, 11:02 AM | #112 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
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Quote:
__________________
Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-16-2003, 05:02 PM | #113 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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It waited for Sauron to recover. It may even have called Bilbo, because it knew that Gollum wouldn't come out from the cave on his own. Still, I think it was the Ring that drove Gollum down there, and he obeyed like a whipped puppy.
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cya |
05-21-2003, 10:51 AM | #114 | |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 6
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Re: Gollum Debate
Quote:
How can you saw Gollum did best? if he had let Deagol have it and give it to the "Elders". it would have been found by the forces of good even before Sauron started to mass his forces.
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*Eomer* |
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05-21-2003, 11:17 AM | #115 | |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 6
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Quote:
the ring wanted him to go underground because then it can wait for sauron to gather strength and mass forces. Gollum did it because he did not like the sun or moon, he went underground to hide from his shameful life. it was both Gollum and the ring that wanted to go underground.
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*Eomer* |
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