Homosexual marriage II

[BeardofPants]

That was painful.

[brownjenkins]

I'm not surprised. In my experience with a lot of parents as my four boys go through school and life, I've found fathers to generally be the more negative role models.

More often than not though, I think it is simply that women are generally taught to care more about other people than men are, and this carries over to adulthood. Men tend to be more self-centered.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's a carry-over of patriarchy; the man is still expected to be more self-determining, and the woman more nurturing.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

It's a carry-over of patriarchy; the man is still expected to be more self-determining, and the woman more nurturing.

I tend to disagree with that statement, at least on a personal level, because I am much more 'nurturing' than either of my parents... especially my mother, and certainly more so than either of my sisters. None of us have any children of our own, but we have all cared for children on some level as baby sitters, and I have worked with children quite a bit in my various jobs. I think if you asked them, my sisters would agree with my statement.

I know some guys who definitely fit the description you're talking about Gwai, but I can also think of many men who I would consider to be very nurturing.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

So can I. I was speaking in generalities, and every generality is untrue.

I didn't mean to suggest that there were no counter-examples, or even that there weren't a good number of them. I was just talking about a general cultural tendency to expect certain behaviour models from people. Of course, people don't always fulfill these expectations, and awareness of that fact has risen to the point that it is no longer seen as any sort of transgression. From my experience, though, the general expectation still remains, even if its not as strong as it once was.

[Hirulin]

Personally, I don't see the point in marriage period! If two people love each other (regardless of gender) then why do they need the state to approve it! I've been with a guy for over a year and plan to spend the rest of my life with him, but I'd never dream of getting married to him!

With regards to raising a child, if a couple can provide a loving family environment and nurture the kids, then who cares what gender they are! I've known many a straight couple whio should be sterilised to prevent them from procreating! I think that there's too much focus on sexuality, it should be humanity thats the focal point!

I'm gay by the way!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Hirulin

Personally, I don't see the point in marriage period! If two people love each other (regardless of gender) then why do they need the state to approve it!

I'm with you on that. The government should work its way out of the marriage picture, as I expect it will over the next few generations.

Historically, government almost always left marriage alone. Then organized religion co-opted it for mostly taxation purposes, which was later taken over by government institutions as religious control declined.

The whole moral/societal arguments over the control marriage are very recent in nature.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Hirulin

Personally, I don't see the point in marriage period! If two people love each other (regardless of gender) then why do they need the state to approve it! I've been with a guy for over a year and plan to spend the rest of my life with him, but I'd never dream of getting married to him!

With regards to raising a child, if a couple can provide a loving family environment and nurture the kids, then who cares what gender they are! I've known many a straight couple whio should be sterilised to prevent them from procreating! I think that there's too much focus on sexuality, it should be humanity thats the focal point!

I'm gay by the way!

To be honest, I tend to agree with you about the state and marriage. I think it should be primarily a private matter, and the state really has little business there. As thing's stand, however, that's not the world we live in, so I feel it's necessary to work with what we have.

I will say, however, that I am kind of dubious about trying to separate sexuality from humanity; it seems to me that the two are inextricably connected.

[Midge]

Originally Posted by Hirulin

Personally, I don't see the point in marriage period! If two people love each other (regardless of gender) then why do they need the state to approve it! I've been with a guy for over a year and plan to spend the rest of my life with him, but I'd never dream of getting married to him!

With regards to raising a child, if a couple can provide a loving family environment and nurture the kids, then who cares what gender they are! I've known many a straight couple whio should be sterilised to prevent them from procreating! I think that there's too much focus on sexuality, it should be humanity thats the focal point!

I'm gay by the way!

As a newlywed, I should highly disagree with you on the purpose of marriage. When I was in high school, I planned on staying with my first boyfriend forever, but that clearly didn't work out. The PURPOSE of marriage is a commitment. While the government has slightly undermined this purpose by making divorce so easy, it's many times easier to just leave someone when times get rough and you feel like it if you don't have the high stakes in the relationship that marriage demands.

As to the purpose of government in marriage, I tend to lean toward the side of the less government in our lives, the better. It has a God-given purpose (like everything), but that purpose is NOT to regulate every jot and tittle of our lives.

For those of you who do not adhere to the Bible and its statutes, I do not see why gay marriage would be a problem. However, I am not among you, so don't tear me to pieces for being abhorred by the idea of the practice of homosexuality. Such a practice should not taint the beauty of marriage the way God created it.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Midge

don't tear me to pieces for being abhorred by the idea of the practice of homosexuality. Such a practice should not taint the beauty of marriage the way God created it.

If you would rather not be torn to pieces for your opinion, you should find a less abrasive way of expressing it than telling a gay man that you find him abhorrent. Or if you intend to express your opinion so strongly, then be prepared for consequences .

I am not meaning to imply that you should not express your opinion, but if you give a strong comment don't preface it by basically saying, "go easy on me."

[Hirulin]

if it's in their faith then people can express their views and thats fair enough, (although a better choice of words would be prefered! ) but I think you've hit the problem head on hun. You say God created marriage, not so, people created it as a means of showing to god that they are committed to their spouse as well as to him (and don't say that the bible says god created it, cos we all know the bible was written hundreds of years after the events had taken place and is mainly a way of keeping people in check [do NOT missunderstand me, I'm not bitching at christians or the bible, if it brings you peace, then good, believe in it with all your being and more!]) I just have trouble in trusting a god that gives you free will, then punishes you for using it! Besides, pagans had handfastings long before christian marriages came along and I still don't think their a good idea. If you think it's easier to leave someone just because your not wed to them, your wrong, sorry! A piece of paper is a powerfull item, it can bind and trap a person in a relationship which they may not want to be in, if you don't have that bit of paper, you're more likely to stick at it if only to prove it to yourself!


I really don't want to sound as tho I'm slating you, I believe that you have the right to worship who you will and act as you will. And if that makes you happy, then great! I just don't get how happiness, however it's achieved, can be abhorrent!

May your god's be with you, whoever they are.

[BeardofPants]

I am against marriage & have been with the BF since '94.

[The Gaffer]

It's hard to imagine a more diverse range of opinions.

I am married, and I am also divorced. I think both are great!

This is my question to Midge, and/or anyone who thinks that "commitment" is an end in itself: why do you want me to be miserable for the rest of my life?

[Midge]

Originally Posted by Tessar

If you would rather not be torn to pieces for your opinion, you should find a less abrasive way of expressing it than telling a gay man that you find him abhorrent. Or if you intend to express your opinion so strongly, then be prepared for consequences .

I am not meaning to imply that you should not express your opinion, but if you give a strong comment don't preface it by basically saying, "go easy on me."

Well, I was careful to word that to where it's not the gay man or woman that disgusts me, but the practice. On that same note, I apologize for making anyone in this forum feel like I abhor them, because it's not true.

Basically, the "don't tear me to pieces" was because I figured the end result of my post would be that I was discarded as a hopeless case in the argument. After all, I am blinded by my faith and therefore refuse to follow good logical reason. Because I knew that was probably where all the arguments against me were going, is there really any need for me to have to hear them and others to have to give them?

Hirulin, if all marriage is to you is a piece of paper, it is not a powerful item. Marriage is more of a covenant, a promise. It's you publicly announcing that you will only love your spouse romantically, that you will not abandon him or her (for better or worse, etc.), that you will not betray him or her. It's quite a weighty thing, if one takes it seriously, which I and my husband do. If you've simply been together for a very long time, you have longevity on your side, but really that's it.

As to people being miserable, Gaffer, that's really up to you. Several things that people attribute to emotions are actually choices. Joy is a choice. Love is a choice. I can't do anything about that.

[Hirulin]

Originally Posted by Midge

Hirulin, if all marriage is to you is a piece of paper, it is not a powerful item. Marriage is more of a covenant, a promise. It's you publicly announcing that you will only love your spouse romantically, that you will not abandon him or her (for better or worse, etc.), that you will not betray him or her. It's quite a weighty thing, if one takes it seriously, which I and my husband do. If you've simply been together for a very long time, you have longevity on your side, but really that's it.

Fair point well made darling! But you can still make those vows to each other in your own way! Chris and I have decided that we will be staying together, till death us do part, and we do take that very seriously. Just because we don't have the ceremony, doesn't make us any less commited to each other!

although, I must admit, I'd look Stunning in a wedding gown!

[Hirulin]

Originally Posted by Midge

I apologize for making anyone in this forum feel like I abhor them,

You didn't make me feel like that! I believe we are all entitled to our own opinion, and as I previously stated, if your faith tells you these things, then thats up to you and your god to sort out how you feel about the individuals involved! I'd gladly invite you out for a coffee regardless of your faith!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Midge

Several things that people attribute to emotions are actually choices. Joy is a choice. Love is a choice. I can't do anything about that.

,
Weird. Interesting, but weird.

Personally, I chose to get divorced, and the world has more love and joy as a result, for everyone involved.

[GrayMouser]

Actually I think Midge made her distinction quite clear. In my case, I abhor the belief that homosexuality is abhorrent, but I don't abhor the people who hold that belief- why, some of my best friends are homosexuality-abhorrers...but I wouldn't want my brother to marry one....

As for marriage, I'm a bit of both of a ceremonialist and communalist. I think ceremonial occasions are important and I like the idea of making a formal statement as a member of a society. A wedding banquet is ( or should be) a communal gathering of friends and family to recognise a new stage of life for a couple. (Of course, it should be totally optional).

Concerning vows, Elrond says

"no oath or bond is laid upon you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road," and adds "let him not vow to walk in the dark who has not seen the nightfall"

but I tend to agree with Gimli that "sworn word may strengthen quaking heart" - though Elrond warns, "Or break it."

I hasten to add that after having been married for twenty years I am in no way comparing it to an almost hopeless quest through a barren and desolate land filled with treachery, enemies and foul beasts, whose only aim is to destroy a Ring and set yourself free before you become a will-less enslaved wraith, helplessly grovelling before an all-seeing Eye... Ouch, of course I wasn't talking about you, darling.

[The Gaffer]

Someone explain to me why divorce is a bad thing.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Someone explain to me why divorce is a bad thing.

Divorce isn't a bad thing at all. In fact, it's a much more thoughtful commitment than marriage ever is.