11-24-2003, 01:36 PM | #101 | |
Enting
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I made no reference at all to Conrad's essay. You posted that: 'Winged speed is an expression used most often for swift flight with wings.' I posted examples where 'winged speed' is used with regard to things without wings. ¤ |
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11-24-2003, 02:00 PM | #102 |
Elven Warrior
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Maybe Conrad took it from David then, (didn’t mean to imply you were stealing) I’m not sure which is earlier. Conrad’s essays can be found at http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB6.html
In my opinion, Michael's work really shows the flaws in this presentation. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 11-24-2003 at 02:01 PM. |
11-25-2003, 02:32 AM | #103 |
Hobbit
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Michael's essay is crap. He purposely stays clear of the actual text in the finished work in favor of the notes and scribblings of the brainstorming that Tolkien did. All one has to do is focus on the actual finished text. The wings in the Moria scene were described as LIKE wings, not wings. All he was saying is that the creature was surrounded with shadow and that when the creature "rose up to a great height" the shadow around him LOOKED like wings. How people get from that description that Balrogs have actual physical wings is beyond me, and certainly beyond anything that Tolkien ever wrote.
Do Balrogs have permanent wings of shadow? Perhaps. The description makes it a possibility but nothing close to a certainty. Do Balrogs have actual physical wings? None are described. Ever. And if they existed, why would Tolkien spend time talking about wings of shadow and fail to mention the actual wings? If one believes that a Balrog has physical wings, then why shouldn't one also believe that they have webbed feet, tentacles, and insectoid pincers. I mean Tolkien never says that Balrogs DON'T have those things, right? Like Cian, I am also interested in hearing why you favor the concept of a Balrog having physical wings, Dunedain. What is the evidence that leads you to believe that the creatures have something which is never mentioned? Ever. |
11-25-2003, 06:54 AM | #104 | |
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11-25-2003, 10:16 AM | #105 |
Enting
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Subject 'Balrog Wings FAQ' from Michael Martinez (1999) -- question number 7 (from Tolkien Newsgroups)
Question 7) What were the wings made of? Answer Michael Martinez: "We don't know. Quite probably "shadow-stuff", whatever it was which the Balrogs used to cloak themselves in darkness. They probably were not made of flesh and blood, or feathers, and need not have been membraneous (skin stretched across appendages)." Not that I necessarily agree with Michael about X, but that might be interesting at least, to folks who might post his essay for discussion. ¤ Last edited by cian : 11-25-2003 at 02:02 PM. |
11-25-2003, 01:14 PM | #106 | |
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11-25-2003, 01:37 PM | #107 | |
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Joins the debate...
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I do not know if Balrogs have wings or not. Lately I have been leaning towards the wing-theory, but I have not seen any firm evidence for it so to me it's neither true or false. I have read the essay on the encyclopedia, but have found it not to include all the arguments for wings (though it's a long time ago, may have made some changes to it since then).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 11-26-2003 at 10:15 AM. |
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11-25-2003, 03:17 PM | #108 | |
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-25-2003, 03:23 PM | #109 | |
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P.S. I love the Encyclopedia of Arda by the way
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-25-2003, 03:27 PM | #110 |
Long lost mooter
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I'm not trying to change the course of the argument, but I just wanted to give my views on the matter, for fun.
I happen to envision the Balrog with wings, because when I read the passage, I "hear" that it has wings (whether they're wings of shadow or actual wings matters not in my vision, because either way they look the same). (Remember my little "essay" about the story being "in the eye of the beholder" in the movies forum -- don't worry, I won't repeat it here. ) In answer to the question "do they?" I answer is that it could be either. If you want your balrog to have wings, go ahead. If not, fine. I know the arguments stem from what the exact intention of the author was, and that's fine to debate about it for fun, but in the end, it is my belief, because of my view on the nature of literature as art, that both views are valid, since nothing definitive was ever said by the author. To me, that means that it wasn't important to the story whether he had wings or not, and that the passage is meant to draw a picture in the reader's mind. Tolkien's achievement is that he is able to draw that picture for each reader, and that each reader then comes up with a vivid picture in his mind, together with a host of emotions in response to the actions. What an enviable thing for a writer to achieve! Not only that, but my imagination takes things even further. [i]I like to think that maybe there were some balrogs with wings, and some without, just like dragons. All of this makes it very convenient for me -- I have no angst over "do they or don't they." -- Azalea the Ambiguous |
11-26-2003, 10:06 AM | #111 | |
Hobbit
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"My biggest thing is, as I said above, why would Tolkien constantly speak of Balrogs on the level of winged like creatures. I think it's fair to say we can all agree there are a substantial amount of passages where Tolkien speaks of Balrogs and either refers to flight in some way or wings in some way, whether they are figurative or literal. The point is, the two seem to always accompany each other when Tolkien speaks of them. I mean if his descriptions always go back to that, and it doesn't just happen once or twice. There are many other forms of descriptions in writing he could have used outside of those, but yet everytime he goes back to them, makes you wonder why." "I am really in the middle on it, but lean more towards that they did have wings..." Oh yeah, you're right in the middle. |
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11-26-2003, 10:20 AM | #112 | ||
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11-26-2003, 11:59 AM | #113 | ||
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The encyclopedia's article presents lots of pro-and anti arguments, but it doesn't present all pro's (unless there has been some rewriting since last time I read it). Perhaps not all anti-arguments either. It is also an encyclopedia, which is not supposed to have it's own opinions on the matter, only present the facts and draw a conclusion.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 11-26-2003 at 12:03 PM. |
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11-26-2003, 01:07 PM | #114 |
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Just my opinion, the Encyclopedia of Arda is not the most reliable source either.
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11-26-2003, 01:54 PM | #115 | |||
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11-26-2003, 03:13 PM | #116 | |
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Just because I said I lean more towards that they had wings doesn't mean I can't be a centrist on the issue...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-26-2003, 03:39 PM | #117 |
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LOL, are you two still going after it? Now I see why SF-Fandom forbids discussing Balrog wings.
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11-26-2003, 04:21 PM | #118 | |
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Balrogs had wings (man-shaped, wreathed in dark shadowy wings). Now stop yer arguing.
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11-26-2003, 06:56 PM | #119 | ||||
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I think I will leave it at this and take BoP's advise, because none of us is going to convince the other that he (she? Sorry for asking) is right (besides, I don't want to get any higher on SGH's list ). You may think his article is "****", I think it has some valid points. In my mind the Balrog doesn't have real wings. But my mind is small, those big wings probably won't fit into it. If I've missed anything, please let me know. It's been a hard day and I'm very tired right now so I do not expect everything written above to be 100% correct...
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 11-26-2003 at 07:04 PM. |
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11-29-2003, 06:07 PM | #120 | |
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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