Dying for Colored Rags

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Yes, I know JD. That's why I said it was the best I could find - it was a paragliding site for gawds sake (but it served my point that New Zealand is part of the Australasian continent.) But yes, thanks for finding a better site. Anyway, you are simply nitpicking now. New Zealand is part of the Australasian continent. I mentioned that I don't have an affinity to the continent I stand on. The point still stands. I don't.

Well I don't care that much abotu North America either - I care about America. Canada and Mexico - although relatively good neighbors (we enjoy the longest undefended border in the world with Canada) are not where I live. I live in America - and therefore it comes first, then North America - then the western hemisphere (of course New Jersey comes before any of them though).

If countries were just rocks we stand on - then why do people defend them so much? Why did Europe fight against germany during World War I and World War II? Why are the Palestinians and Israelis fighting over a piece of dirt (killing thousands of civilians in the process)? Why does South Korea protect itself against North Korea? Why were there celebrations at the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification of Germany? Why did Parisians cry as Germany marched through their city and why did they celebrate the liberation of France if countries are just rocks?

People don't know what they have until it's lost.

[Sheeana]

Uh. Territorialism? Limited resources? Religion? Any of the aforementioned? Because at the end of the day we haven't really escaped our animalistic natures? The only reason you are American is because your mother just happened to drop an egg at the right time that was fertilised by your father. It's all so random. That is why I think nationalism is strange. It's basically anthropomorphizing a piece of land/cloth. I identify with culture more than nationalism. Besides, why would I want to exult New Zealand above all other countries? That's incredibly stupid. We're all human. We all came from the same stock.

[afro-elf]

If countries were just rocks we stand on - then why do people defend them so much?

We live a symbolic world.

If you call a loin names, tell him his pride has a bunch of losers in it it does not matter. But if you physical attack him that's a different story.


We get offended at ideas. We will kill/die for them.

Symbolism.

[Baby-K]

If you call a loin names, tell him his pride has a bunch of losers in it it does not matter. But if you physical attack him that's a different story.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh god AE, thanks for that, I needed a good laugh (sometimes typos are so much fun eh? ) I'm sure you prolly meant lion and not loin né?

*pictures someone trying to tell AE's loin that he's got losers in him*

*falls over laughing at thought of someone physically attacking AE's loin*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Uh. Territorialism? Limited resources? Religion? Any of the aforementioned? Because at the end of the day we haven't really escaped our animalistic natures?

Why - if one country is as good as another - what would the people care? They still live there. I can see the people in power having a problem - but why the "normal" people? It's because it's their culture and their way of life and PRIDE in one's country.

If people didn't associate themselves with their countries then Europe would have absolutely no problem forming a European Union and disolving the borders. England would have become a full fledged member in all senses and adopted the EU Currency (which adoption was just rejected again).

The only reason you are American is because your mother just happened to drop an egg at the right time that was fertilised by your father.

My mother lived in the US her whole life - so regardless of where she "dropped her egg" I would have been American. And regardless of whether it is just chance as you say - doesn't make me any less American. I am proud to be American and I am proud to share the history of America - even if my ancentors weren't here to fight in the revolution. It is the history of MY country and I admire the people who fought for the freedom that I now enjoy.

It's all so random. That is why I think nationalism is strange. It's basically anthropomorphizing a piece of land/cloth. I identify with culture more than nationalism. Besides, why would I want to exult New Zealand above all other countries? That's incredibly stupid. We're all human. We all came from the same stock.

It may be stupid for you - but if you don't have pride in where you live - then I think that is strange. Everything is based on chance - but you also have a role to play in what happens. Americans have a role to play in what happens to our country - it is a piece of us. That is why people fight for it. I'm sure if North Korea or China decided to attack New Zealand - you would have a problem with it.

If someone invaded America I would fight to the death - because it's our way of life, our form of government, heritage, history, etc which would be taken away.

I have come to realise that you really do live in the clouds and not in the real world. If I go to new Zealand - will I see you passing out flowers and singing "Kum Ba Ya"?

[afro-elf]

OH MY GAWD...

That is argubly my best typo yet.

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by afro-elf
OH MY GAWD...

That is argubly my best typo yet.

Freckin brilliant! Ah f*ck me, I'm still laughing

(more a Freudian slip than a typo IMO )

[Anglorfin]

On a smaller scale, why do people like to clean their houses? Why do people get irritated when they are disturbed while sitting at their desk?

On a larger scale, why do we recycle? Why do we try to make more environmentaly safe products?

The answer to all of these is because we love the space we have come to call our own and would try our best not to have it disturbed. the basic idea for nationalism is no different. Though it can be a dangerous thing, it doesn't have to be. The problem with that word is now everybody looks at it in such a negative manner because it does seem to come in waves that most often lead to conflict.

The only problem that I have with nationalism on any level is that it can easily interfere with our abilitiy to identify ourselves with ALL HUMANKIND. When is the last time you've ever seen a bumper sticker that said "Proud to be a homo-sapien"? Sure, nationalism unites people, but it also inevitably sets up boundaries. I am not against it, I am just saying that it is too easy for people to isolate themselves because of it.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


I have come to realise that you really do live in the clouds and not in the real world. If I go to new Zealand - will I see you passing out flowers and singing "Kum Ba Ya"?

What's with the flame? Did I piss on your shoes or something? Excuse me for approaching the world with an anthropological perspective!

[afro-elf]

Anglorfin,

Well said.

[Anglorfin]

As long as people understand that there really shouldn't be any boundaries, then nationalism is ok. This is going to sound stupid but I'm going to quote the Olive Garden commercials. (Olive Garden is a chain Italian restaurant on the east coast).

When you're in my house, you're family>

We shouldn't say, "Oh you weren't born here therefor you are not true (name of coutry)." Whoever it is, as long as they are there they are part of that nation because they have a part to play in it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
What's with the flame? Did I piss on your shoes or something? Excuse me for approaching the world with an anthropological perspective!

Just an observation on how you view the world. We have countires - just like we have houses, cities, counties and states (people can replace the above words with their own corresponding terms for the concepts) . Just because I happened to be born to my parents who lived in American - doesn't make me any less American. Maybe it is completely logical that other beings live on other planets and it just luck that we were born on earth - it doesn't mean we should care any less about earth - after all it is just a rock.

I just find it very strange if you have no attachment to where you live or just view it as chance and therefore it has no meaning.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Anglorfin
We shouldn't say, "Oh you weren't born here therefor you are not true (name of coutry)." Whoever it is, as long as they are there they are part of that nation because they have a part to play in it.

Anyone who takes the oath of citizenship in the US is an American. Since you are a New Jerseyan - I think you know how diversified New Jersey is (at least you should).

Colin Powell is the son of immigrants from jamaica - he is just as much American as anyone else - as were his parents. It doesn't matter if a person is born here or not - it only matters how much they are willing to accept America. My ancestors accepted America when they came here - and fought to come up from poverty and fulfill their American Dream.

Now - we have the hyphenination crap - African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans. They're not African, Italian or Irish - they're ancestors were - they're all Americans. That splits up the country into further divisions - divisions which shouldn't be there.

[Sheeana]

If you read my posts you would see that while I do not subscribe to nationalism, I do subscribe to cultural identity. They are two different concepts. The whole point of nationalism is that you elevate your culture above everyone elses.

[taken over to email.]

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Now - we have the hyphenination crap - African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans. They're not African, Italian or Irish - they're ancestors were - they're all Americans. That splits up the country into further divisions - divisions which shouldn't be there.

Don't forget that cultural pride is just as important as national pride. Both help the individual to understand where he/she came from, and it is 100% appropriate to take pride in both country and ethnicity. Still, either way you look at it, both nationalism and culturalism set up barriers. The only problem with culturalism is that it is totally exclusive. You cannot change your background, which is why the barriers set up by ethnicity are so large (aka racism). In all cases it boils down to whether or not you can accept the person next to you as a human being.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
If you read my posts you would see that while I do not subscribe to nationalism, I do subscribe to cultural identity. They are two different concepts. The whole point of nationalism is that you elevate your culture above everyone elses.

Cultural identity is PART of nationalism. People should have pride in their country. Canada - even though it is just across the border from us and 90% of it's population lives within 90 miles of the US border - has a different culture and heritage than us. Mexico also has a different culture. Part of what ties that culture together is the NATION.

Why are we the United States? Because after the Revolution the states decided that instead of being seperate countries and loosely joined by basically a treaty known as the Articles of Confederation - they would join together to form a single country. Part of tht joining together stipulated that each state would retain it's identity and that the federal government would be limited and that the MAJORITY of the power would rest with the states. So - in the US - we just don't have pride in our country we have pride in our home state.

The world practices nationalistic pride every 2 years - it's called the OLYMPICS. Countries try to outbid each other on hosting these events even - so they can show the world the best of their countries. England has rabbid soccer fans that show their pride - not the best side though in my opinion - but they obviously show pride in their home towns and country.

Anyway who doesn't have nationalistic pride - must not root for their home country in the Olympics or other world sporting event. I can personally don't carebabout sports really - if the Devils left New Jersey - I wouldn't care who won the Stanley Cup - unless it was between an American and Canadian team. It's all about pride in where one lives.

[Sheeana]

Not necessarily. Culture is defined as: " the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group." Nationalism is defined as: "a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups."

What I am trying to say (rather badly) is that biologically we are driven to develop these cultural ties to the people we grow up with, and interact with. However, that is as far as it goes with me. I acknowledge that I share an identity with the people who live here, but I do not place New Zealand above all other countries, nor do I romanticise the significance of being born into this particular geographical location. Is this clearer?

[Baby-K]

Cultural identity is PART of nationalism. People should have pride in their country. Canada - even though it is just across the border from us and 90% of it's population lives within 90 miles of the US border - has a different culture and heritage than us. Mexico also has a different culture. Part of what ties that culture together is the NATION.

I do agree with this. If I had to consider that in SA each ethnic group has it's own cultural heritage, stemming from the region they are from & what language they speak (I'm speaking of the indigenous South Africans, but it could of course include immigrants). All the groups are extremely proud of their heritage & boast about it - each 'tribe' wants to be known as the strongest, wealthiest, most powerful etc. Though it has in the past lead to terrible tribal wars (that is still being fought today in some areas), it does not detract from the combined pride at being South Africa.

Though the national pride I would think has more to do with what we have accomplished in the past 10 years than the location. But it has to be said that many black people ( speaking under correction here - it might not represent all black people, but this is something that I'd discussed with some of my friends & what they had said) feel intense pride in being from Africa - it is the home of their ancestors & the birthplace of man.

[jerseydevil]

One other thing about the US and the states. There were arguments during the Constitutional Convention where representatives didn't think that new states should have full representative rights. It was viewed that other than the 13 original states - they hadn't shed the blood which produced the country and they were afraid of the original states influence being watered down. As you can see - any new state admitted into the Union - is a full fledged member of the US. If Puerto Rico ever becomes a state - it will have full representation of all the other states.

Puerto Rico is an interesting example of nationalism. They are a territory of the US - every 5 or 10 years they vote on whether they want to be a state or not. They're are three options on the referendum- independence, statehood, or remain as a territory. The Puerto Ricans are a very proud people, they are US citizens, have US passports - but have their own Olympic teams, they do not have voting representation in Congress. If they voted for statehood they would have voting representation and have all the rights of all the other states. They have repeatedly voted to remain as a territory though - one of the reasons - they don't want to lose their olympic team or individual identity. Yet independence is a distant third in votes. Statehood is a close second to remaining a territory and only just missed approval in the last election.

US Council For Puerto Rico Statehood
The Future of Puerto Rico

Nationalism
Some people would rather Puerto Rico become an independent nation. They are proud to be Puerto Rican and want their own country. We believe that this is an honorable alternative, but in vote after vote, independence has been rejected by the vast majority of Puerto Ricans. Nationalism is understandable, and something that the people of every territory that ever petitioned for statehood had to grapple with. Indeed, the 13 colonies had to also deal with this issue over whether or not and how to give up some of their individual sovereignty in order to form a Union.

[afro-elf]

Anyway who doesn't have nationalistic pride - must not root for their home country in the Olympics or other world sporting event.

I must have failed the test. I really liked the Central Red Hockey Teams.

I don't root for any particular team. It's more of the style of play.


HOWEVER, when I was teaching in Saudi Arabia I always rooted AGAINST the Saudi team. I was quite happy about the Germans blowing them out 8-0

I think that this is getting into what consistutes Nationalism vs Culture agrument.

It seems that we ALL ( for the most part) agreeThat it does not make us innately better humans being from a particular counrty

Now lets get back to serious issue like who is the better warrior Feanor or Fingolfin?