Journeys discussion thread

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Sneaky indeed - and he took Rameldir completely by surprise

The more fragile Glorfindel is very different from the legend hero Rameldir has always heard about. I suppose the first meeting between them a hundred years ago would have been quite something. Rameldir would be quite awestruck and feel like a ten year old boy again.

Perhaps Willow and I ought to play it between us in PMs and work it in as a flashback at some point if it makes good reading.

I like the flashback idea - feel free to pursue anything interesting like that in a flashback. A big part of this RPG concept is memories, and how they are so vivid for Elves.

ps- has anyone else ever had that goofy idea about the ocean taking a break when no one was looking? We've done lots of beach camping, and darn if every time I wake up, the waves are still at it! I've always imagined that they keep a watch out, and if all the campers are asleep, they take a little break ...

[Varnafindë]

Very true - and most of them were only teen-agers when he was killed, right?
They would have the same connection to him as Rameldir, of only having known about him as one of the adults, and then hearing about him as a legend.

I believe it would be different if he met with one of his fellow adults from Gondolin. But perhaps none of those are still around in Middle-earth. Glor is left with all the young fans

[Willow Oran]

It's possible that Pengolod and Galdor are still around at this point. But yeah, he is pretty much stuck with all the young fans who I am assuming will at some point pester him for stories...

[Rían]

Nice post, guys! The second-to-last paragraph was esp. good, with the idea of half-familiar faces (isn't that frustrating?! I have that problem! I have trouble identifying faces out of their normal context. How frustrating that must be for Glor!!) and a bit of guilt over getting out of some of the suffering - very interesting concepts to explore! And the idea of him blushing because he didn't quite have full control over his body yet ... *imagines him accidentally burping at a banquet * "whoops! Sorry, that one escaped me - don't quite have full control yet ... "

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I believe it would be different if he met with one of his fellow adults from Gondolin. But perhaps none of those are still around in Middle-earth. Glor is left with all the young fans

There are at least two left - Tyaron and Alagos were full-grown men and honkin' bad kick-butt warriors at the time of the FoG (yes, I know that "everyone" makes their people really good, but hey, you got Glor ). I haven't developed all the details, but I've always imagined them as nobles attached to the king's house before Tuor's arrival, then transferred to Tuor's house because of their blood and skills. I'll work out all the details as the need arises, but they are men and fighters that even Glorfy would know and respect. In fact, I've also pictured them fighting at the Nirnaeth, and seeing Hurin and Huor's last stand before they retreated with Turgon, so they are very old indeed! Do you want Glor involved with that battle, BTW?

[Rían]

OK, got my on-the-road post up and edited. Earniel, anything for your guys? Let me know In fact, just edit it in, in case I can't get to it.

My foot surgery is on Thursday, so this will be the last post for a while - sorry, I'm going to have to probably break my own 2-week rule, as it is rather major surgery But I should be able to read your posts after a bit, and I'll be composing in my head (under the influence of pain-killers! )

Namárië!

[Willow Oran]

Your foot surgery coincides with my finals week. No worries if you can't post for a bit. Just rest and feel better.

There are at least two left - Tyaron and Alagos were full-grown men and honkin' bad kick-butt warriors at the time of the FoG (yes, I know that "everyone" makes their people really good, but hey, you got Glor ). I haven't developed all the details, but I've always imagined them as nobles attached to the king's house before Tuor's arrival, then transferred to Tuor's house because of their blood and skills. I'll work out all the details as the need arises, but they are men and fighters that even Glorfy would know and respect. In fact, I've also pictured them fighting at the Nirnaeth, and seeing Hurin and Huor's last stand before they retreated with Turgon, so they are very old indeed! Do you want Glor involved with that battle, BTW?

Glor rather has to be involved in the Nirnaeth. Tolkien has him covering the retreat on (I think) the left flank of Turgon's army and I added in his bio that he gets some sort of nasty injury in the process. He might be too busy or too in pain to actually see Hurin and Hour's last stand, but he'd definitely be there.
Are you imagining your guys as born before or after the move from Nevrast to Gondolin?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Your foot surgery coincides with my finals week. No worries if you can't post for a bit. Just rest and feel better.

thanks, and good luck on your finals! *doesn't miss finals at all!!!*

Glor rather has to be involved in the Nirnaeth. Tolkien has him covering the retreat on (I think) the left flank of Turgon's army and I added in his bio that he gets some sort of nasty injury in the process. He might be too busy or too in pain to actually see Hurin and Hour's last stand, but he'd definitely be there.

Oh, I forgot that - for some reason, I'm not a huge Glorfindel fan - I mean, the guy's totally awesome, but I've always liked Fingon better! *swats away Earniel* I didn't remember him in the Nirnaeth - I'll have to re-read it while I'm stuck in bed with my foot up. That will be interesting to have the Nirnaeth vets sharing memories ...

Are you imagining your guys as born before or after the move from Nevrast to Gondolin?

For my first incarnation of the characters, Alagos was born on the way (it was a wild, windy night - hence "Alagos" - "windstorm"). I haven't decided for this RPG, though. Do you have any preferences? I really don't care too much either way.

[Willow Oran]

I had got the impression of after given how attached to the memory of it they are... but they're your characters!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

OK, got my on-the-road post up and edited. Earniel, anything for your guys? Let me know In fact, just edit it in, in case I can't get to it.

No, I'm fine. Just one thing, though, they did bring at least pack-horses with them, I hope? Travel may be a little slower otherwise.

Good luck with the foot surgery, I hope you're back on your feet again soon! (Got to see the skin specialist on Thursday too, but I hope that in my case, we're past the cutting stage now! )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, I forgot that - for some reason, I'm not a huge Glorfindel fan - I mean, the guy's totally awesome, but I've always liked Fingon better! *swats away Earniel*

You can keep Fingon, it's Tuor we were squabbling about, remember?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I had got the impression of after given how attached to the memory of it they are... but they're your characters!

Good point - although I think that even if they were in Nevrast, they'd still love Gondolin more It's just such a totally kewl place!!!!

(I bet they had pack-horses for THAT trip ...)

[Rían]

Guys - could you please give me some feedback on my departure post? There hasn't been any feedback on the actual post (except for fun side-issues, like elven pack-horses and Gil-Galad's mommy), which worries me. Is it so bad that no one wants to comment? Or is it so awe-inspiring that it struck everyone speechless?

Seriously, this is a pivotal post in the RPG - they're leaving, and they're stating their motives/desires for the trip, and I really want to get it right. Are there too many quotes? I found and just loved that first quote and thought it was a perfect match in many levels (it inspired JRRT, it mentions a major Gondolin character, etc.) Is the post too maudlin? Or is it just totally elven with their love of language, etc.?

Please give me some feedback and help me get this post as good as possible!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I thought of a compromise to get me over my aversion to elves and pack-horses. How about Cirdan sending some books and other things to Elrond? That would be a good reason for a pack-hor ... er, a horse-helper ...

I don't mind the Elves travelling without a pack-horse but this idea could actually be an ideal way of introducing our five travellers to Elrond. How about the books are Elrond's own books, that Cirdan kept safe while Elrond was fighting in the war? Now that Cirdan has learned that Elrond has found a place to settle, he can send the books. They could be the first books in the fabled Rivendell library!

Good thought - maybe they had a lover's quarrel before he left? Or maybe she just wanted to make darn sure that Gimli didn't get it?

Hehe. That or he never had the heart to break the news to her that her cooking sucks and he dumped left all the Lembas in the first ravine he found.

How 'bout both? I seem to remember one Sil person who had an emergency pack of lembas for dire need. So they could have lots of waybread, and because of their rank/age, have a small amount of lembas.

There is Beleg, who received Lembas from Melian, which helped to support Turin's band of outlaws in a tight spot. That might be the situation you're thinking of.

As for our Elves, I'm not against it, but if we do, I think we must absolutely include some reminder of 'Gee, turns out Gilgalad's mom was a great cook after all.'

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Guys - could you please give me some feedback on my departure post? There hasn't been any feedback on the actual post (except for fun side-issues, like elven pack-horses and Gil-Galad's mommy), which worries me. Is it so bad that no one wants to comment? Or is it so awe-inspiring that it struck everyone speechless?

I'll be honest and say I'm not the greatest one to look at for feed-back. I love getting it, but I am very uninspirational when it comes to giving feed-back on art or writing myself. And I don't want to sound like a broken record each time with 'good post', or 'I liked that bit'. Don't get me wrong, I think every single one of the story-posts so far was good, but I'd feel fake saying it constantly, like a sycophant.

If there's something I think is wrong, or might be better differently, I will say it. And I will nearly always mention the things I found really, really interesting or really, really funny. But if I'm not saying anything, you can assume I approve.

[Willow Oran]

There aren't too many quotes, only one that isn't fully incorporated into the text and I really liked the use of elvish. It's their language, and it makes sense to use it. The heightening of tone came as a little bit of a jolt at first, but because you made use of the elvish and because the scene is the physical start of their geographical and emotional journeys it works.

Echoing LotR by having them set out at dusk instead of dawn was also a very good touch.

[Varnafindë]

Here's how I see your post:

It's a solemn post for a solemn occasion - this journey isn't just a fun walk for entertainment, it's a real quest for something worthwhile. It's emphasized by people gathering to see them off, and Cirdan giving them Elbereth's blessing - as if they are doing this journey on behalf of all those who might be thinking along the same lines, but perhaps drawing different conclusions.

Then the Nirnaeth veterans draw their swords according to their tradition, and pledge themselves to their mission - I especially like how, as they are all stating their motives, each of them takes the next person's hand one after the other. It shows some of their bonding as participants in the quest.

[Rían]

Thank you very much for your comments, Willow and Varna - sometimes my posts get too angsty, and I need a good fish-slap across the face from others.

Monty Python fish-slapping dance


It looks like I basically hit the right tone here, though. I might make some minor adjustments when I'm recovered enough (surgery in 14 hours!) because I think it's a really pivotal post, but I'm glad to hear that you think the general post is fine. Thanks again, it's very helpful!

And thanks for explaining your thoughts, Earniel - I know what you feel about saying "great post", "wonderful post" over and over. It gets just ... fake, even if you don't mean to be fake. That's why I try to pick out specifics when I do make a comment. I won't look out for many comments from you, since you've explained that you're just not a natural at reviewing. Give it a shot from time to time, though

bye!

[Willow Oran]

A lighter toned post - because there just aren't enough elfling vs. walrus encounters. Varna, I borrowed Arindis and Erufalion, let me know if you want me to edit their bits.

[Varnafindë]

Should the children clamor for one more story - and have Rameldir tell the story of how Erufailon saved Arindis from drowning (as he heard it from his mother)? I would have to work out the details, I only know that Erufailon did. So perhaps it would be better to leave that story for some other night, and perhaps just refer to it now, and have Rameldir promise to tell it later.

When I decided on that event, I didn't know how close family Arindis and Erufailon were, so I thought that accident and the safe outcome of it, was what made Arindis discover the lad. But now that they are closer family, they would have been in a group together even before that.

Still, that event would be a turning point in their friendship, something to make her admire him a lot, and make her father have an even higher opinion of him than before. When they get to Middle-earth, they go to different places, but when they meet again at that great feast - A... something - they realise that 'this is it', and decide to get married.

Would the walrus event be before or after the near drowning, do you think? They were 25 (A.) and 35 (E.) at the time, btw. When I decided that, I was seeing them as nearly teenagers at that age ... the ageing of Elflings is a complicated matter, is what I find. Their growing feelings for each other would work even if they were mentally children rather than teen-agers, I guess.

.....

Rereading your post, I get the impression that this happened after he saved her from drowning. That could be why they are such good friends now, not just cousins of whatever degree. Erufailon is trying to be responsible, even though he can't stop Glor when Aredhel challenges him ...

I didn't tell you that about them, did I?

[Willow Oran]

I went and read the stuff you have posted about them in the Writer's workshop forum. I'm not sure if you mentioned the near drowing bit there or not. I can edit in a mention of the story if you like, or, since I left my post pretty open ended, you can pick up from where it leaves off and either launch into another tale or send the children off to bed with the promise of the story later on.

As for the aging stuff:

If between the years of 1 and 50 we assume that elven children age at an approximate, comparative rate of three years to one, it generally works out.

Since crossing the Helcaraxe took about 33 years of the (at that point non-existent) sun, I took the ages you gave for them to be the ages they started out as.

I have Glor as 24 when they start and 40ish in the walrus incident with the idea in mind that it took place a few years after a massive accident with un-stable ice in which his parents, Elenwe and quite a few others were drowned/crushed/frozen. Now, despite Tolkien's insistence on describing every noble elf and elf-maid as 'tall,' the limited resources they would have had while crossing the ice don't strike me as enough to fuel adolescent growth spurts. So although the four younger elves are mentally adolescents in my last post, I envisioned Erufalion, Idril, Arindis, and Glorfindel especially, to be still fairly childsized.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I went and read the stuff you have posted about them in the Writer's workshop forum. I'm not sure if you mentioned the near drowing bit there or not. I can edit in a mention of the story if you like, or, since I left my post pretty open ended, you can pick up from where it leaves off and either launch into another tale or send the children off to bed with the promise of the story later on.

What about I wait see whether the story gets written fairly soon? In that case I can tell it, or otherwise I can promise them some more later on. I suppose we can wait for a couple of days.
I might have to do a similar thing to what you did, I guess - rather than tell the story, have him relive the memory. Not of what happened, in his case, but of asking his mother about it when she told him.
And I didn't mention the near drowning in that forum, but perhaps it has been mentioned in one of the threads I linked to.

As for the aging stuff:
If between the years of 1 and 50 we assume that elven children age at an approximate, comparative rate of three years to one, it generally works out.

That makes sense.

Since crossing the Helcaraxe took about 33 years of the (at that point non-existent) sun, I took the ages you gave for them to be the ages they started out as.

The crossing taking 33 years was news to me.
I've been going by a chronology that someone compiled, which talked only of two or three years. See how that might make a difference?
I'm fine with the correction, though. Which HoME volume haven't I read yet?

I have Glor as 24 when they start and 40ish in the walrus incident with the idea in mind that it took place a few years after a massive accident with un-stable ice in which his parents, Elenwe and quite a few others were drowned/crushed/frozen. Now, despite Tolkien's insistence on describing every noble elf and elf-maid as 'tall,' the limited resources they would have had while crossing the ice don't strike me as enough to fuel adolescent growth spurts. So although the four younger elves are mentally adolescents in my last post, I envisioned Erufalion, Idril, Arindis, and Glorfindel especially, to be still fairly childsized.

Glor is nearly the same age as Arindis, then. And Erufailon would be nearly 50 and about to come of age soon. (Or 'reach his majority', which is a term I've seen in many fanfics - is it a better term?) But I agree that he and the others wouldn't be as tall as they would have been at that age if they had stayed in Valinor under normal Elven conditions. But mentally adolescent.

And that massive accident you mention, would then have been the same as the one where Arindis was in trouble. Their friendship would deepen after such an incident.

[Willow Oran]

I've been using Morgoth's Ring as my primary source... The crossing did take two to three years, but years of the Trees, one of which is supposed to be equivalent to about 9.6 solar years.

I made the conversion because I'm assuming the elven growth rate is better rendered in solar years, despite the initial lack of a sun; possibly the elves measured time by movements of constellations and later on those measurements synced up with the sun's cycle.

Regardless, the one time Tolkien talks about elven growth rates he makes a direct comparison to mortal child development and that just wouldn't make sense if he was in the habit of using completely seperate measures of time for the two races.

Glorfindel will be very interested to hear the story, should Rameldir chose to tell it. He was in a bit of trouble himself at the time, so it'll be somewhat new to him.