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04-13-2006, 09:48 PM | #101 | ||
Spaceman Spiff
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WK- Khamul, geez, will you take off your ring or at least put a robe on, you're hideous. I hate this place. *kicks unsuspecting Orc out of the highest window of Minus Morgul* Quote:
Edit- I thought of something else I wanted to ask. How hard do you think it would be to 'take' a ring from one of the Nazgul? Or even to trap 'em. It's not like they could put a ring on a string and wait for a Nazgul to come by and go "Oh, look, a ring." and then pounce on him and hold him down why an orc or something takes it off, right? Just woundering.
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Do you hear that? Last edited by Farimir Captain of Gondor : 04-13-2006 at 09:52 PM. |
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04-14-2006, 07:05 AM | #102 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Nazgul visibility/invisibility is a most interesting question.
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What do we have? Quote:
However, this quote belongs to the early stages of LOTR composition. Its precursor is the quote from HOME “The Return of the Shadow” Quote:
In the quote Gandalf warns Frodo of the effects the ring will have on him, if he wears it. Gandalf volunteers as little information as possible. He couldn’t continue and tell Frodo “Sure, when you master your Ring and become a powerful sorcerer taught by Sauron himself, you will be able to appear visible again”, could he? Such fate as the Witch-King’s was impossible for Frodo anyway, so why frighten and bewilder the hobbit even more? Probably the nazgul ring, when fully mastered, could make the wraith visible or invisible at will, exactly like Sauron wearing the One. The wielder only had to know the appropriate spells. I believe that the freshly-made wraiths, when first assembled in Mordor, had some “Advanced Training for Ring-users” by Prof. Sauron himself. After that, they could probably wield their Rings to their full power. And now, if I am wrong, and the Rings couldn't make the wraiths visible, there was still another possibility: The Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer. Even without his ring, he could affect other’s thoughts and perceptions. He could make people believe they saw his face, while a photo taken (if photos existed in ME ) would have shown no face. Even Real Life illusionists are able to hypnotise a large audience - surely it was possible for a sorcerer. I think that the mortals could be easily fooled by such a method. To remain undetected, the main idea was to avoid wizards, Valinorean Elves and the wielders of the Three, as they could see the WK in the spirit world and so recognise him. Interesting that he ran from Glorfindel. I believe it was largely because he saw himself unveiled at last. Yes, the Witch-King wore a black mask at Fornost battle. Perhaps it was a metal one, like Dwarves (or Turin) wore, used for face protection from stray arrows (a wise thing to have when facing an army on your own). Another explanation would be that remaining visible (either by means of pure sorcery or by a ring-spell) needed constant mind concentration, the more so, the bigger audience he had. In battle, he simply had other things to do than to think about his appearance, so he used a mask. Quote:
Mordor was occupied and closely guarded by Gondor till the Great Plague in TA 1636. After it, Mordor was left unguarded, Soon some nazgul were spotted in Gorgoroth: Quote:
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And, if you are right, and Sauron DID take the WK's ring in 1975, then he could have easily sent the WK himself to collect the remaining Rings. It took the WK 5 years (1975-1980) to come to Mordor, so, probably, he visited their Eastern realms, took their Rings for Sauron and herded them to Mordor. Thank you, CAB, for your excellent summary. I agree that the Witch King’s story in the Third Age was tragic. Last edited by Gordis : 04-14-2006 at 07:08 AM. |
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04-14-2006, 02:36 PM | #103 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I can't imagine orcs attacking a nazgul... I believe Sauron's presence was necessary in the first cases. And than the pack of ringless nazgul could be used to hunt others. (I don't really think Sauron used the Barlog ).Perhaps armies were involved, just to get close enough to a King-nazgul. As for trapping, in principle it was possible, as Gandalf believed that Saruman would try to trap a nazgul in Isengard. But again it needed a maia to do so, so Sauron's presence was necessary. |
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04-15-2006, 01:27 PM | #104 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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After reading your post and giving the matter some thought, I think you may be right Gordis.
My first instinct was to disagree because Sauron, like Morgoth, had many Men serving him. Why then would it be important for the Nazgul to look normal to better control their people? (Actually I still don’t think this is completely necessary, but it would help.) But it seems that Sauron didn’t have many, if any, Men in his army during his war to recover the rings in the Second Age. This isn’t plainly stated but it is the impression I get while reading The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales. It is stated that Sauron was turning Men to evil early in the Second Age but that doesn’t have to mean that they were serving him. Alternatively, Sauron might have given the rings to the leaders of powerful groups or nations of Men who refused him. Surely not everyone in the East and South was under his sway. Maybe Sauron’s great forces of Men in later times was greatly due to his use of the rings in the Second Age. I am not sure about the method the Nazgul would use to appear normal. Personally, I don’t think that the rings’ original purpose (for Sauron) was to make the wearers wraiths. I think this was more an unplanned consequence. Having the ruler of a newly allied nation become a wraith doesn’t seem very advantageous. Therefore I don’t think this power would have been built into the rings. Maybe the sorcery method, using the more general “magical” strength the rings provided (as opposed to a specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive) is the best answer. Thanks for your answer to my question. You have shown me something new about Tolkien’s world once again. I have read many of your earlier threads and have learned a lot from them. Thank you. Last edited by CAB : 04-15-2006 at 01:29 PM. |
04-16-2006, 06:32 PM | #105 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I believe that in all cases, after becoming wraiths, the nazgul had to abandon their peoples and kingdoms and come to serve Sauron in Mordor: to get some training in sorcery and to learn to obey Sauron and the Witch-King their Captain. I am not sure, whether after that period, the nazgul were released to rule separate kingdoms, or they were kept in Mordor throughout the Second Age. Anyway, when in the Third Age they returned to their peoples, they must have been only a dim memory and an ancient tale. Imagine someone coming and telling: "I am the Great Khamul of old returned to you" - that must have sounded ominous enough, all by itself. And if it were said by a scary dwimmerlaik with no face, I believe the population would flee screaming. And let us take the Witch-King in Angmar. There he had nothing to tell the people: most likely the Hillmen or other natives of the land never heard of him. He had to build his kingdom anew, attract mercenaries and other "evil men". Then there are so many other cases when appearing normal is helpful: spying, travelling etc. I believe the search for Baggins would have been so much easier if they could inspire confidence in the men they questioned. But even more important is another aspect. If the Rings, when worn, could really bring them back into the World of Light, they would be able to see it clearly, not to wander around half-blind, as they did in LOTR. Actually, if I am right, then the mission to the Shire was the very first trip of the blind ringless nazgul out of Mordor: no wonder they felt disoriented and made so many blunders. Perhaps the Witch-King had perished in such a stupid way because he was unused to fight while almost blind - so he missed Merry? Quote:
Sure, all this host had been destroyed, and Sauron fled "with no more than a bodyguard"- UT. Perhaps, most of them were orcs, I really don't know. Quote:
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And, CAB, I meant not the "specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive" but just the ring's ability to transfer a physical body not only from the World of Light into the World of Shadow (that they surely could do), but also back: from the Wraith-world, where the nazgul dwelt by default, into the World of Light. Always a pleasure to discuss things with you, CAB. |
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04-17-2006, 01:12 AM | #106 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-17-2006, 04:42 AM | #107 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think, whatever it may be, it contradicts both the Silm and the LOTR. BTW, glad to see you again in the Tolkien forums. You are missed, you should really post here more often! |
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04-17-2006, 04:59 PM | #108 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yeah, I suppose I should, but I"m still kind of Tolkiened-out as far as posting in the Tolkien threads. I was almost entirely in the Tolkien threads years ago, though.
I found it - it's in Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", in the subsection "Aman and Mortal Men". If you don't have it, I'll type some in for you
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-17-2006, 06:02 PM | #109 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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Gordis, concerning your point that Men would be more easily lead by “normal” looking Men, all I can really do is echo what I said before. I agree that they would be more likely to follow a seemingly regular person, but it is not required that a leader of Men be a normal human. The only evidence I have (or need) for this is Morgoth and Sauron. Both of these had many human servants at times when there was no way to mistake them for Men. Admittedly they were far stronger than any of the Nazgul, but this doesn’t disprove the point. Again, I agree that for the Nazgul to appear to be living would be helpful.
I would guess you are right about the Nazgul being able to see the World of Light while holding their rings. Having possession of the rings probably shored up some of their other weaknesses as well. For Sauron’s greatest servants, the Nazgul seem rather pathetic during the Lord of the Rings. This is almost certainly due to the fact that Sauron, rather than the Nazgul, was holding the Nine rings. I am not really sure what to think about the Nazgul being able to transfer back and forth between the two different Worlds. I was under the impression that, while clothed, the Nazgul existed in both Worlds. If they shifted primarily (or entirely) into the Light World what would be the nature of their bodies? Would they be the same bodies that they had before? If so, why would they be considered wraiths? I don’t really know enough about this to have a strong opinion. Here are the quotes from Unfinished Tales that made me think that perhaps Sauron had no Men in his army during the first Ring-war: Quote:
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No one would mistake this for ironclad proof, but considering these points while also thinking of Sauron’s use of the rings, I began to think it was at least possible that Sauron had no Men in his army at this time in spite of the size and effectiveness of his forces. Quote:
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04-17-2006, 06:15 PM | #110 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's a bit from that essay -
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-17-2006 at 06:16 PM. |
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04-17-2006, 06:41 PM | #111 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Who says man is a rational animal?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-18-2006, 07:01 AM | #112 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!). In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that the bird was one thing, the nazgul was another- always man-shaped, and changed the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now. But he didn't correct the "Fellowship" accordingly. Not all of it. .So Radagast's : "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's "` the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.' and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception. And, to my knowledge, he never returned to this question in his later writings. But quite recently, I have found a most curious quote in the Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth concerning reincarnated elves: Quote:
I would say (pure conjecture) that the nazgul always had the same bodies, once living, now undead (they never died, or were resurrected). They mostly existed in the Spirit world, but, when they wanted, their bodies were present in the World of Light - only invisible. So they could wear clothes, ride horses and interact with the living. But maintaining the body in the physical world was a conscious act of will - so when the WK was slain, his body disappeared, moving by default into the spirit world. Yet, I am completely uncertain about all of it. I know, some argue that the nazgul were simply invisible men- their bodies always present in the World of light, able (or even needing) to eat and drink. May be. What do you think? Quote:
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Rian, I made a special thread for your question. Last edited by Gordis : 04-18-2006 at 07:12 AM. |
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04-18-2006, 05:36 PM | #113 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Posts: 15,254
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oh, ok - just saw it ...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-19-2006, 01:00 AM | #114 | |
Spaceman Spiff
Join Date: Nov 2005
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I don't really have anything interesting or insightfull to add, just wanted to say I love coming in here and reading your guy's post (CAB and Gordis). I learn something I didn't know everytime I come here. Like this:
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Do you hear that? |
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04-19-2006, 07:17 AM | #115 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Thank you, Faramir, it is quite flattering. For my part, I really enjoy discussing things with CAB and with you.
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Here are the quotes. It was Udukhaturz who first posted these two bits in another thread. http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?...0&postcount=81 Now, thanks to Udu, I will not have to type it anew. Quote:
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04-19-2006, 03:34 PM | #116 | |
Shadow Lord of Morgul
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 547
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04-19-2006, 05:36 PM | #117 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I am sure you have somnething to say! Especially, about my ravings on nazgul bodies... I am absolutely uncertain about this matter myself. For instance, what happened at the Ford? Were the nazgul bodies simply sorely wounded? Or did they move into the spirit wotld entirely, unable to return back into the physical world without Sauron's help (or more likely not Sauron's, but their Rings' help)? It seems they had to return to Mordor, as best they could, for healing. |
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04-19-2006, 09:37 PM | #118 |
Shadow Lord of Morgul
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 547
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Gordis,
Though I have spent much time in pondering and questioning, I am not clear upon the matter myself. Since Tolkien said nothing definite, anything I say is purely conjecture. About all I will state in the way of an absolute is: the Nazgul are unlike any other supernatural phenomena that is commonly found in myth, legend, superstition, and/or fiction. They are original, the works of Tolkien’s hand and his alone. Essentially I consider them as invisible men more or less preserved, capable of reasonable thought, surrounded by a magic “force field.” That said, I will go on. What do we know about wraiths, ghosts, etc. in literature and/or legend? 1. The wraiths are not ghosts, which are disembodied spirits or souls of humans usually. Often they seem to be associated with a place, person, event and are more or less trapped to stay there (although there are accounts in lore of “ghosts following people home.” I will not comment upon that.) Usually, they are insubstantial vapors. 2. This separates Nazgul from demons, djinns, evil spirits, etc. which are in a whole other category that can have physical manifestation. Read Burton’s version of 1001 Arabian Nights to see their romantic prowesses if you doubt this. 3. They are not zombies, corpses reanimated by magic. Going back to Number One, how do we know they are not ghosts, disembodied spirits? Tolkien tells us so. "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later, the dark power will devour him." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56 If they are not dead, they cannot be ghosts, only INVISIBLE MEN. "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p.289 It hardly seems likely that they are demons, djinns, etc., or Tolkien would have told us that. (See above) Zombies, no. They are simply dead bodies that are made to move around by some form of magic. What what does this leave us? Invisible, magic men. In Tolkien’s earlier versions, he had them as almost maia-like shapeshifters who could turn themselves into giant vultures. I think our confusion lies in this. Tolkien did rewrites constantly. As Gordis said, “The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!).” At least we know or have a good idea of what they are not, but as to what they are will always be a matter of pure conjecture. I am sticking with the invisible, magic men. |
04-20-2006, 04:28 PM | #119 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Udu I agree that the nazgul are not djinns, or ghosts, or zombies. In Tolkien's world, IMHO, demons are Maiar, ghosts are also present - dead men of Dunharrow. As for the zombies, the closer one can get are the Barrow wights, but they are decaying bodies inhabited by evil spirits, not exactly zombies, but close.
The nazgul and the Morgul-knife victims are wraiths, with clear physical side, some hroa always present. Most likely, it is the same body they had while alive, otherwise they should have passed through a re-incarnation, which is a difficult thing even for a maia. Once their body is slain, they won't be re-incarnated again. That is consistent with the end of the LOTR, but, unfortunately, not with the beginning. *sigh*. Quote:
I know, all these questions are hard to answer anyway... I wish Tolkien had developed his nazgul conception further. By the way, aren't the nazgul very similar to FADED Elves that Tolkien calls "the lingerers"? They have physical invisible bodies and they are not dead. Thinking of the Lingerers, perhaps they were the reason why Celebrimbor made the interaction with the Spirit World one of the properties (if not the main property) of the Nine Rings? Perhaps the Elves wanted to communicate with their faded kin, still living in ME? Perhaps they even wanted to help the Faded ones to become visible again? |
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04-20-2006, 06:23 PM | #120 | ||
Shadow Lord of Morgul
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Obviouly the spell had been undone and the Witch-king's body was subject to harm. As to what happened to his body, I will posit this: as so happens in legends/literature, his body crumpled to dust, like Saruman's, when Eowyn gave him the death blow in the skull. Quote:
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