07-08-2006, 06:07 PM | #101 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
evidence for this? (just curious how you are SO sure...) best, BB |
|
07-08-2006, 06:07 PM | #102 | |||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Our prey, Butterbeer…? Well, we are on a hunt, aren’t we? “The Hunt for the Nazgûl Who Hunted the Ring”?
An historian, however, must back up his speculation with logic, reason, and evidence. Unless we can find more material from Tolkien – and one of Gordis’ triumphs is the quote found Hammond by Scully – we are still speculating. -|- Edit - posts are coming so fast, it’s hard to keep up... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 07-08-2006 at 06:15 PM. |
|||
07-08-2006, 06:15 PM | #103 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Alcuin, I haven't thought about Tom spilling the secret of the WK identity out to Men of Cardolan...
Possible, but would he know or even be interested in the Mannish sorcery such as enspelled blade-making Quote:
But what about Glorfindel? By the way, I even argued at length that Glorfy must have been PERSONALLY acquainted with the Witch-King back in the Second Age, when they fought side by side in the War of 1697-1700 against Sauron. We have no data, but the timeline fits nicely. One reading the LOTR and Appendices gets a feeling that the WK and Glorfy are connected somehow. Why would Glorfindel have a prophetic vision about the fate of a complete stranger? Why did the WK run away when seing Glorfy? More importantly why hadn't Glorfindel attempted to follow the Witch King after the battle of Fornost to get rid of him himself? He was no Man ... |
|
07-08-2006, 06:19 PM | #104 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
with respect Alcuin, .. and may i say i am prepared to provisionallly give it here gladly ...
you either miss the nuances of my point or try to fob me off on a funny side-track ... my point is there is a FINITE wealth of evidential Tolkien ...after all he was mortal and died ... but his work lives on to some small degree here with us ... if we say that there can be no debate about his living works without solid historical fact ... then why debate? The point, to me, here, is that it is open for interpretation ... simply because Tolkien himself was continually revising and trying to fathom and create a fuller, more detailed more coherrent and visceral world for us all. what do we do here? if not continue that tradition and respect his life's work with thought and questions and theories ... in a way he would be immortally proud of? Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 06:24 PM. Reason: grammar |
07-08-2006, 06:21 PM | #105 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
You claim now that Aragorn knew beyond the wise the identity of the Witch King? Else, it is clearly meaningless. best, BB |
|
07-08-2006, 06:21 PM | #106 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
|
|
07-08-2006, 06:25 PM | #107 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
|
|
07-08-2006, 06:29 PM | #108 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Now, perhaps, to protect himself against magic, the WK himself tried to keep his real name secret. Seing Glorfindel, he may have been dismayed ALSO because Glorfindel was able to recognise him and tell his name to others. I think, the Dunedain and the Wise first learned he was A nazgul, but didn't know which one... Then the complete certainty came at Fornost. |
|
07-08-2006, 06:32 PM | #109 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
post #102 ref: the heir of the palantir question and your 'evidence' that the WK was not / could not be .... this 'theory' subsequently supported by on a quote from Aragorn in the Two towers ... which, since you now withdraw it as useless evidence is clearly not a valid point.
best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 06:34 PM. Reason: innacurate post reference |
07-08-2006, 06:36 PM | #110 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
|
correct me if i'm wrong on this, but i don't think an elf re-incarnative, having lived in valinor for however long, would willingly want to join a mortal army, even if their king did practice sorcery. i mean, in tolkiens world, i believe that that would make him look pathetic, especially in the eyes of gil-galad.
__________________
Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved. |
07-08-2006, 06:40 PM | #111 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
The quote Alcuin posted proves that Palantiri belonged to the Line of Elendil.
Now the Witch kimg was not a descendant of Elendil (for obvious reasons). Therefore he had no right to the Palantiri and no rightful claim to Arnor& Gondor founded by Elendil anf his heirs. But of course, being of the main line of Elros, he considered himself heir to the Kings of Numenor and claimed the kingship of all the Numenoreans in exile, Dunedain included. As I said, regarding the kingship, it is an impossible question from the Real Life POV : suppose Charlemagne's wraith came to claim the throne of France from Louis XiV? Who has more right??? |
07-08-2006, 06:41 PM | #112 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
|
|
07-08-2006, 06:41 PM | #113 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
well, jammi on the logic you put forth, consider that a 'correct me' !
best BB |
07-08-2006, 06:44 PM | #114 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
(correct me if i am wrong but have you not yourself not argued this very thing elsewhere?) best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 06:48 PM. Reason: grammar again and also correction of meaning |
|
07-08-2006, 06:46 PM | #115 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
in SA 1695 Sauron attacked Celebrimbor, sacked Hollin, took the Rings and overrun Eriador, beseiging Elrond in Imladris and Gil-Galad in Lindon. Glorfindel was said to come to ME from Valinor via Numenor, on a Numenorean ship. A great fleet was sent from Numenor to aid Gil-Galad in 1697 SA. Most likely, Glorfindel came then, to aid Elves in ME attacked by Sauron. As for the Witch-King, it is very likely he was in this fleet, maybe even was the head of the Numenorean army. It was certainly BEFORE he got the Ring. |
|
07-08-2006, 06:49 PM | #116 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
That says nothing about whether the Witch-king was really “Elvis son of Tar-Minastir, Prince of Armenelos” and Aragorn did or did not know it. You seem to think I had made that claim, and I have not, and I do not now. I don’t understand what you are saying, Butterbeer. I can’t see the connection between being the rightful Heir of Elendil, thereby having claim to an “inalienable gift” made to your forefather, and knowing the identity of the Witch-king. Is this a misunderstanding, or can you fill in the missing pieces? |
|
07-08-2006, 06:51 PM | #117 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
|
Quote:
__________________
Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved. |
|
07-08-2006, 06:53 PM | #118 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
just to clarify .... does it not go with everything Tolkien everwrote in terms of Kingship and rights and lineage and royalty as an englishman that were the WK the true heir prior to Elendil post the massacre of the west on Numenor, that in the spirit and law of both the world created by JRR and his thoughts, that IF the WK is potentially the true King, then he would be able to master BY RIGHT the palantir???
|
07-08-2006, 06:56 PM | #119 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
you seem fixxated on Elendil .. is not the point that he had no true right to the throne? The question is DID as GOR thinks the WK have that right? best BB |
|
07-08-2006, 06:56 PM | #120 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Quote:
I think the WK had good reasons to consider himself the Rightful King of Numenoreans. I believe, the Black Numenoreans, if they knew who the WK was, certainly accepted his claim. But Gondor and Arnor were founded later, by Elendil, and therefore belonged to his sons and their sons. So... well I don't know. Difficult legal issue. |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
Ring's sentience and Ring detection | Gordis | Lord of the Rings Books | 17 | 01-04-2008 09:37 AM |
Why did the Ring betray Isildur? | Nurvingiel | Middle Earth | 138 | 12-24-2007 01:52 PM |
One Ring Futility / Unwanted Bilbo | CAB | Middle Earth | 8 | 06-27-2006 05:44 PM |
The ring took a huge risk | The Wizard from Milan | Lord of the Rings Books | 9 | 01-01-2006 02:56 PM |