Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

2. When was the last time you saw a major figure of world history, past or present, gain great evil power by convincing the masses that there is no god? Seriously, name one. .

Joseph Stalin.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think discussing Lotesse's beliefs would probably fall in the "Why you believe what you believe" thread instead of the "Religious Knowledge" thread since she doesn't consider her beliefs to be religious.

Not that I do, either - but I DO consider them to be the same type of beliefs as mine - i.e., worldview beliefs.

That sounds reasonable to me, but I'm totally irrelevant in this! Of course she can decide for herself what she wants to do, or if she wants to talk about it at all. I'm stepping out of it now . *Runs like a coward.*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

An Excellent book which shed light on much of what everyone here is saying or rather why they are saying what they are saying, when quoting Herr Hitler is:
Language Of The Third Reich: Lti, Lingua Tertii Imperii : A Philologist's Notebook (Continuum Studies in the Third Reich) (Paperback)
by Victor Klemperer, Martin Brady

It is most enlightening if you're interested in liguistic tactics.

It is quite amazing that Hitler was so successful in fooling the German people in many ways. To us today, it's clear he was utterly wicked. To people in that time though, he was glorious and splendid. It's totally bizarre, and freaky to think about human nature that way, and how fallible people are . That and the evil in Japan in that time period are two key factors that make me extremely pessimistic about human nature.

[Spock]

Since this morbid facination has encroached upon The MOOT, Perhaps another book to get is:

GUIDELINES FOR ADOLF HITLER'S BIRTHDAY. Translated from the SS original published by the Reichsführer-SS in 1943. Instructs how to properly celebrate the Führer's birthday on April 20.

Happy Birthday!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Lief Erikson]

Lol.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

To help Raddy & BoP and others here with proving the point that yes, most of Europe did know what was happening in the camps, and what the Final Solution was all about, I found this letter - here's part of it. Check it out!

I'm not entirely convinced that the whole of Europe knew just what was happening in the Holocaust camps. My grandad and many of his village for instance didn't hear until the war had ended. Granted, they didn't live in the big cities, but much of the populace didn't either. Oh, they knew something fishy was going on, people disappearing, never being heard or seen again and more than likely killed. But the real atrocities of camps, no, not everyone knew that.

I also think there were differences due to region and situation. Some of Europe was under control of Hitler, others were free, still others were neutral. I doubt the news-distribution went equally in the European lands.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What I mean by "IMO, atheists/agnostics are religious" is that they, EXACTLY like "religious" people, have worldview beliefs that they base their decisions on, and which they cannot prove are right. In fact, to prove that there IS NOT a god requires one to be omniscient think about it ...

This difference is we aren't quite so obsessed about "proving" anything. We're more than willing to accept the fluid nature of reality.

[Falagar]

Well, we can get pretty obsessed with "proving" that reality is fluid...

Originally Posted by Spock

Joseph Stalin.

Didn't gain power by claiming that, gained power by succeeding Lenin (who didn't even want him) and murder opponents.

[brownjenkins]

"Proving" assumes that the answer can be known, and it can not and we accept that. That is the difference, not our obsessions.

[Falagar]

Ah, ok. Thought it was the obsession you were referring to.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Rian

Or maybe we should start ANOTHER thread!

PLEASE do not do that! There are already so many religious threads on this forum, I can't remember which is which.

Btw, wasn't Hitler classed eventually as being one of the three supposed anti-Christs that are to appear before the end?

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

PLEASE do not do that! There are already so many religious threads on this forum, I can't remember which is which.

Thank the stars someone besides me said this.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Btw, wasn't Hitler classed eventually as being one of the three supposed anti-Christs that are to appear before the end?

An interesting factoid from the internet:

Title: : STUDY OF ANTICHRIST AND HIS KINGDOM BY STUDYING ADOLF HITLER AND HIS KINGDOM -- PART 3 -- HITLER CHANGED THE TIMES AND SEASONS!

Subtitle: Just like Antichrist is prophesied to act, Hitler changed the German calendar and days of festivals. He replaced the "Christian" festivals and events, plus the Christian based calendar, with pagan holidays. Just as Antichrist will do!

-------and then check out this url: http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1244.cfm

Some very interesting viewpoints.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Well, we can get pretty obsessed with "proving" that reality is fluid...
Didn't gain power by claiming that, gained power by succeeding Lenin (who didn't even want him) and murder opponents.

hmmm, he closed the churches, said there is no god only the state and forbade worship in any form.

[Lief Erikson]

I am a Muslim!





Does the fact that I said this make me one?

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Spock

hmmm, he closed the churches, said there is no god only the state and forbade worship in any form.

True, but these actions had nothing to do with his ascension to power.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

PLEASE do not do that! There are already so many religious threads on this forum, I can't remember which is which.

Jus' jokin!

[BeardofPants]

Earniel, that is a very good point you raise re: the variance in geography, etc with regards to the people in Europe knowing about the extent of Hitler's/Germany's actions towards the jews. From my oma's point of view, she knew about the camps, and she knew about the enmasse persecution against jews (and no Lief, she is not a jew), so she had a fair idea what was happening to them during the war because of all the 'disappearances', but she certainly didn't realise the scale of 'the final solution'. Certainly, it could be argued that people in other areas of Europe may not have been so clued up to Hitler's activities. Incidentally, it's one of the reasons that oma & opa migrated out to NZ - to get away from all the horrible memories and devastation of the war (my opa had been a POW in the Japanese camps, and even to this day, prior to his death, he hated the Japanese with a passion).

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

PLEASE do not do that! There are already so many religious threads on this forum, I can't remember which is which.

What's that matter, afraid your alzheimers will kick in?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Earniel, that is a very good point you raise re: the variance in geography, etc with regards to the people in Europe knowing about the extent of Hitler's/Germany's actions towards the jews. From my oma's point of view, she knew about the camps, and she knew about the enmasse persecution against jews (and no Lief, she is not a jew), so she had a fair idea what was happening to them during the war because of all the 'disappearances', but she certainly didn't realise the scale of 'the final solution'. Certainly, it could be argued that people in other areas of Europe may not have been so clued up to Hitler's activities.

I agree, also.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Incidentally, it's one of the reasons that oma & opa migrated out to NZ - to get away from all the horrible memories and devastation of the war (my opa had been a POW in the Japanese camps, and even to this day, prior to his death, he hated the Japanese with a passion).

It's pretty logical he responded that way, though tragic as well. The Japanese were extraordinarily brutal during WW2.

Originally Posted by Falagar

True, but these actions had nothing to do with his ascension to power.

The key point is that incredible violence has been justified by atheism, just as it has been justified by religion. If Stalin had believed God would judge him for his crimes, he probably would have thought twice before murdering over 20 million people.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There was nothing in the Mein Kampf saying the Jews should be eradicated. Can you provide evidence that Hitler publicly stated that the Jews should be exterminated?

No, because the idea was thought of only during the war.. and even if it was planned back then, Hitler would never say so publicly. His ideology though was based on a great German Empire inculding Germany and all the lands to the Urals, without any Jews (Judenrein). When the war began the immigration ceased... implying the "final solution", as there was no other.

This doesn't change the facts about what the modern accepted historical viewpoint is.

I don't know. You only showed a quote from Wikipedia. (I'm aware of the quote from the Holocaust Museum, but it doesn't mean this is the accepted historical view).

I do know that many knew, for certain: The Germans from Einzetzgruppen (sp.?) and Vehrmacht that took part in the murders in the Soviet Union knew and told their families in Germany (sometimes sending photos too!), Polish who lived near the camps knew. From them the rumours spread, in 3 years. Also there were escapers from both the killings in the Soviet Union (for instance Babi Yar) or the camps like Sobibor. In Majdanek the Jews were brought to the Lublin train station and walked to the camp.
The Jews in the Ghettos knew! They knew and therefore rebelled in 1942-1943.

According to Gwaimir Windgem's post, he did!

Which post?

I am aware that the Vatican itself hid 700 Jews when the transportations began... I still think it could do more, much more, like announcing "Killing Jews is against the laws of Christianity".

And what I said was not mere assumption. When Pius did write something against the Nazis, it had immediate consequences against Catholics in Nazi territories. I posted a quotation from the Holocaust Museum about that. If he had taken more extensive actions, the retaliation would probably have been more extensive.

I understand the dilemma. But I think it's very wrong to sit and do nothing while millions are being murdered. It's wrong especially because the Pope had the power to aid them.

I guess all of our religion debate threads here on Entmoot should be closed at once then, for they are evil!

Religions are not necessarily evil, and even if they are there's no point in stopping the discussions about them.

I do think though that the idea of mass-conversion is evil. Whether from Christianity to Islam or the opposite...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The key point is that incredible violence has been justified by atheism, just as it has been justified by religion. If Stalin had believed God would judge him for his crimes, he probably would have thought twice before murdering over 20 million people.

Justified? Thats not true. That there was no god wasnt part of his motivation when doing evil deeds. He had other motivations in mind (most of which involved getting power and keeping power and eliminating any rivals to his power). However, many evil deeds have been done in the name of I KILL IN THE NAME OF GOD! type reasoning. I dont really see how you could have a parallel situation for non-religious folk.