10-27-2004, 01:43 AM | #101 |
Elf Lord
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Then there's also Insidious Rex and brownjenkins. They're the two I've specifically been talking with, so I know particularly where they stand .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-27-2004, 02:01 AM | #102 | |
Elven Warrior
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At the time of writing, I was getting carried away with my hippy communist bit. So carry on.
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Audaces fortuna juvat |
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10-27-2004, 02:21 AM | #103 |
Hobbit
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Location: In the Land of Oregon Where the Cherries lie. . .
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A lot of people have brought up poverty as a reason. I just wanted to run this by them.
As it has been said that a poor person has less of a life and that kids being born into poverty are born into a serious advantage and are all right to abort due to this, is it all right therefore to restrict children born to poor families? I mean, by the logic you are suggesting, a woman who allows a child to be born into this environment is not doing the child any favor while a woman who aborts the baby is not only exercising her right, but preventing a terrible life which is to the unborn baby's advantage to avoid. So, the woman who has the baby is the irresponsible one. AND according to one of the members here, pure democracy is allowable, so we can vote this down if we want, since the majority decides, why can't we vote not to allow these women more than a certain amount of children? It's cruel to the child after all? Now, that is one of my own admittedly huge leaps, but it is a logical extreme. |
10-27-2004, 02:46 AM | #104 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-27-2004, 02:54 AM | #105 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In the Land of Oregon Where the Cherries lie. . .
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Lief, someday I am going to tell you the very scary reason I was refered to this site .
I think all views of "intollerable" are somewhat arbitrary. Everyone has a different tollerance level. I get a stomach ache at the very thought of any abortion. I blame it on maternal instinct as I also know that whenever I am an expectant mother (which I hope to be someday) I am going to live in constant worry of miscarrying. I'm not really a worry wort as far as letting kids run wild goes, but babies are just so delicate, especially pre-birth. Of course, presently this is not a reality. Neither is a holocost, so Nazism and unvolontary sterilization are really just two points of where the logic can take us if we let it go far enough. It is never a fool proof arguement. We may be able to hold it back from ever reaching that point, but I like to bring up that it has before gone to that point (China, anyone?) and it could, and it is best to keep the precedent strong. |
10-27-2004, 03:23 AM | #106 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-27-2004, 05:37 AM | #107 | |||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 10-27-2004 at 05:38 AM. |
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10-27-2004, 08:59 AM | #108 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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UMMMMMmmm,
Does anyone really intend that all dependent persons of pre-born, post-born, and impoverished childhood, adolescence, and adulthood ages be quashed because their standard of living ('quality of life') is inadequate? Let's put contraception in the water supply and only give antidotes to people who have a highschool education (allowed one child) or college education (allowed 2 children) or and additional degree (one more child per degree) PER COUPLE. That way, no one would be unprovided for, right!? If that's not restrictive enough, maybe we should base it on income levels: you can have a child only if your aggregate income is geater than 50k post-tax dollars per annum per couple? What exactly do the defenders of abortion as a means of preserving "quality of life" intend as an adequate "quality of life"? Bear in mind that the aborted embryo/fetus/baby has ZERO quality of life as it was TERMINATED. Why should reproduction NOT be controlled?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-27-2004, 12:09 PM | #109 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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â„¢(courtesy of Janny)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-27-2004, 12:13 PM | #110 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-27-2004, 12:53 PM | #111 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-27-2004, 01:05 PM | #112 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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this was my main point... that almost everyone agrees that innocents can be sacrificed if the reason is good enough i am saying that performing abortions for a very good reason justifies the fact that an innocent will be killed in many people's eyes you might very well make the argument that "there is no reason good enough to justify abortion"... but this is quite different then saying "we should never take an innocent life" (though some, like the roman catholic pope, take this stance)
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-27-2004, 03:54 PM | #113 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
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A few points:
Fenir, taking a moderate stance on the abortion issue doesn't automatically make someone a conservative on every issue. A third trimester fetus is in no way just a "group of cells." I think implying that anyone here thinks that women are merely baby incubators is insulting. I am not for banning abortions outright, and I think the people who are are in the minority. I think most of us just want reasonable restrictions on abortions, just like a lot of us want reasonable restrictions on guns. A question: a lot of the "pro-lifers" have said there are plenty of situations where abortion is a reasonable option. Are there any pro-choice people who think there are any situations where abortion shouldn't be allowed? Assume no slippery slope on either side. Isn't any "pro-choicer" for restricting abortions in certain situations? |
10-27-2004, 04:06 PM | #114 | |
Elf Lord
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In Fenir's defense, I have yet to meet a pro-life individual that I see eye-to-eye with on ANY other socio-economic or political issues. :shrug: |
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10-27-2004, 04:23 PM | #115 |
Elf Lord
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Well, no one's brought up the spiritual aspects of abortion per se. What if any are the ramifications of abortion for Christians? Islamics? New Agers? Hindus? Buddhists? Taoists? ... and let's not leave out the atheists and agnostics?
If humanity contains a spiritual component, how does it figure in for the abortion seeker and the aborted embryo/fetus/baby?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-27-2004, 04:44 PM | #116 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Brownie - but you're still trying to lose my "intent" idea - I'd rephrase your line from "you are saying that making war for a very good reason justifies that fact that innocents will be killed... " to "you are saying that making war for a very good reason, intent being one necessary reason, justifies that fact that innocents will be killed... ". IOW, 'intent' may be a 'good reason', but it is also a required reason, so you can't just lose it in the 'good reason' category.
Kind of like if Fred killed someone, then even tho the dead body is still a dead body, regardless of Fred's intent, Fred can only be tried for first degree murder if there is intent. (or whatever the law is) But that's enough on that azalea - good posts!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-27-2004 at 04:46 PM. |
10-27-2004, 05:30 PM | #117 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Abortion should be performed within a time limit. I'm against (what's the word again?) partial birth abortion. That is also forbidden by Belgian law, if you want to abort the fetus, you must do so before a certain time, I forget how long. It's also more dangerous for your health, I believe, if you abort in a later term. And if you have carried the fetus that long and waited that long before you can make the decision whether or not to abort, I think you might as well go through with it completely and give birth to the child.
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We are not things. |
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10-27-2004, 09:21 PM | #118 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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if you are asking me if i think its just fine for someone to get an abortion because having a kid would hamper their party life style well i think thats thoroughly digusting. and i HAVE known a young woman who got an abortion because she was "young and had her whole life ahead of her and didnt like kids" and let me tell you I certainly disagreed with her attitude and today we are no longer friends really. So dont simply assume Im a cheerleader for abortion or something. I think its a horribly sad horribly tragic thing that should be avoided if it all possible. but i CANT say i have any right to tell a woman what she can or cant do with her own body. this is truly a rock and a hard place issue to me. its not a win or lose one at all. its lose lose basically. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-27-2004, 09:57 PM | #119 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-27-2004 at 09:59 PM. |
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10-27-2004, 10:54 PM | #120 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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The whole concept of a woman being held hostage to a pregnancy is vast overstatement and purely emotional rhetoric. Exactly the sort of emotional language decried by pro-abortionists when the life inside the womb is called a baby or child.
IF, and that's a big IF, women would exercise contraception options, and IF their partners would exercise contraceptive options, no one would be held hostage! One should as well say that the embryo is hostage to the pregnant female - but unequipped to do anything about it! It is natural that sexual relations result in pregnancy unless steps are take to prevent it. Let's move out of stone age thought processes. Where in nature does inter-gender sex not result in reproduction? Where an animal endowed with the ability to understand and deal with consequences BEFORE engaging in intercourse takes appropriate precautions! Which animal is that? Only humans, so far as we know. Which animal routinely fails to so do and then kills the product of lack of forethought? Right! Humans. Anybody else see a break between the sapiens component of our classification and this behaviour?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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