01-16-2007, 11:42 AM | #101 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Littleadanel sums it up pretty well. I think homosexuals deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's not like we can't change the laws back if it simply doesn't work out.
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And arguments that it is "really bad" don't fly either, even if they are true. If homosexuality was "really bad", the act itself would be illegal. Or, at the very least, it would be considered a sickness that had to be treated. It is not. You can't be institutionalized for being homosexual. In fact, most if not all who have ever posted in these threads have supported the idea of civil unions at some point in time, and I don't think anyone has ever argued that homosexuality should be illegal or even grounds for institutionalization. On the flip side of heterosexual marriage, murders can get married, pedofiles can get married, Catholic Priests can get married (though they would probably lose their status with the church). If there is absolutely no requirement for obviously bad heterosexual marriages, how can we impose one on homosexual marriages? Quote:
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01-16-2007, 01:11 PM | #102 | ||||
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I've all along been arguing that more studies have to be done on homosexuality. I know that various medical organizations have said things about homosexuality not being "immoral," though that seems to me to be mere personal opinion. Quote:
The medical profession doesn't know very well yet whether homosexuality is harmful or not, and meaningful studies have not been thoroughly engaged in.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2007, 03:08 PM | #103 | |
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And anyway as some here have already mentioned (on many occasions) the choice/nature aspect of homosexuality is pretty much irrelevant to the point of whether gay marriage should be allowed or not so its yet another red herring used by the anti-gay marriage crowd to cloud the issue. And Lief, again with the same tired previously countered arguments? America is not endorsing “immorality” by allowing gays to marry any more then it is when it allows Britney Spears to marry. And clearly Britney Spears marriage was harmful to all parties involved. Why weren’t you out picketing against it the whole time? You simply cant ban certain people from doing something based on the fact that its “harmful” for them to do it when you have no evidence to support that and outrageous examples of harmful HETEROSEXUAL marriage exist strutting in the media in front of our children each and every day. Who do you think does more damage to marriage in our society? The Britney Spear crowd or two loving anonymous gay people who you will never see in the press and who spend the next 50 years happily married to each other?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-16-2007, 03:36 PM | #104 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2007, 09:04 PM | #105 | |||
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re Britney: as one of my favorite Switchfoot songs says, "the shadow proves the sunshine". The fact that BS made a joke of her marriage and that people realized it just shows that marriage is a good thing. Just because a stupid person does something stupid with a good thing doesn't make the thing bad. Quote:
The only reason that I commented was because it seemed like it was being implied that since something was found in nature, that it's therefore "natural" and "right/good", so I just pointed out that not everything that we see in nature is usually considered "right/good" for humans, even if it IS natural in other species. Quote:
sentence 2 - Since you say "vast majority", then there is obviously a minority that disagrees, so how can you make your sentence 1 statement? I think a more accurate sentence would be "... most people feel that homosexuality is not harmful, although many disagree." I'm not even sure that "most" is accurate, though, if you consider the whole world's opinions instead of just Western-type-civilization opinion ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-16-2007 at 09:08 PM. |
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01-16-2007, 09:14 PM | #106 | ||
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"zero requirements other than the will of two people to marry"?!?! That's certainly not true - there certainly ARE requirements beyond that! That's why I can't marry my first cousin, or my dad, or my next-door-neighbor's 2-yr-old son, or my next-door-neighbor's husband. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-16-2007, 09:31 PM | #107 | |||||
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And if stones DO start to show up, then they'll get reported, because I'm sick of flying stones appearing during a discussion that has been considerate and thoughtful. Quote:
Now I would have a problem with you claiming to speak directly FOR me, but I certainly don't mind if you say what you THINK I meant when it looks to you like someone misunderstood me. I think that's just trying to be helpful. I only get ticked off if someone says "RĂ*an THINKS such-and-such", like they can read my mind , or "RĂ*an SAID such-and-such" and they don't provide a quote (usually because it's non-existent and I never said that). WELL - lots of people quoted me and I got some responses out, but three posts in a row (I tried to make them reasonably-sized posts) is enough for now More after dinner, maybe.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-16-2007 at 09:43 PM. |
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01-16-2007, 11:26 PM | #108 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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That's why nature vs. nurture is irrelavant, as are any arguments that homosexuality is "bad". The only arguments of that vein that make sense are the one's involving minors. It is illegal to marry a minor because sex with a minor (unlike sex with an adult of the same sex) is illegal.
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01-16-2007, 11:44 PM | #109 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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why is sex with a minor illegal, though? Because people think it's bad?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
01-17-2007, 12:01 AM | #110 | ||
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Minors I covered with my response to Lief. It's illegal because sex with minors is illegal. That said, there are people of certain cultures in the US that pledge children for marriage at a very young age, and that informal contract is not illegal as far as I know. Denying marriage to blood relations mostly stems from the physical risks of birth defects. And, once again, the act of incest (unlike the act of homosexuality) is illegal. Polygamy is tougher. It is not illegal for anyone to cohabitate or even have children at the same time with multiple mates, even if they are married to one of them. It is only illegal to marry more than one of them. So, on those grounds, polygamy among consenting adults should also be allowed. One could even argue that making it legal would bring out of the closet something that happens anyway and thus put more scrutiny on times when it is abused (like when it involves minors or incest). But, while homosexual marriage might have anywhere from 25-50% support among the general public, I'd have to guess that polygamy is probably around 1-5%, so it's kind of a moot point. Quote:
It's something I don't understand really. When we talk about pedofila, it makes sense: 1) pedophila is bad, 2) pedophila is illegal, 3) marrying minors is illegal When we talk about homosexuality: 1) homosexuality is bad, 2) homosexuality is legal (maybe even civil unions), 3) homosexual marriage is illegal. It seems to me that if you can't make any kind of case for legal ways of curbing homosexuality other than denying legal marriage, you're standing on very weak ground.
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01-17-2007, 12:10 AM | #111 | |
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01-17-2007, 03:17 AM | #112 | |||||
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Besides, even outside of the religious context, homosexuality was fiercely opposed on the grounds that it was disgusting or in other ways degrading throughout the Communist states. In China, Cuba, and throughout the USSR, there was persecution of homosexuals under Communist, atheist rulership. So your statement is flawed on many levels. Quote:
Studies have to be conducted first to ensure that this course of action is both safe and appropriate. Quote:
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The ability to legally have sex with someone or something is not reason enough for marriage laws to be extended to the people or person and animal at hand. A legal sex life has never been the basis for marriage, under law.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 03:21 AM. |
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01-17-2007, 03:35 AM | #113 | |
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1) Cigarettes are bad, 2) cigarettes are legal, 3) publicizing that cigarettes are good for your health is illegal. Just because something is legal, that doesn't mean it's good. If the United States government said homosexuals should be allowed to marry, by giving them equal benefits with heterosexuals in the marriage institution, we would be saying that homosexuality is fine or good. 1) Homosexuality is bad, 2) homosexuality is legal, 3) the government saying that homosexuality is good (which happens when they give them the right to marry) should not be legal. This is obviously all based on the premise that homosexuality is bad, and I'm not talking about in some abstract moral sense but in a down-to-earth, hurt-your-life kind of way. Some former homosexuals have said that homosexuality hurt them, and there are other reasons too to believe it does. Knowing homosexuals and observing their lifestyle can give insights. There are a few reasons, and these are some, that I think that homosexuality is harmful. But in the psychiatric profession, it is broadly acknowledged that very little is known about homosexual relationships. In my view, our society doesn't know enough about homosexuality to be justified in extending marriage laws to include it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-17-2007, 03:49 AM | #114 | |||
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It is also worth noting that even the Western medical professionals who say homosexuality is fine admit that they don't know a whole lot about homosexuality, because insufficient reliable data has been brought up. They're just being politically correct, in my opinion. And that's what the minority of the American Psychiatric Association said, when they changed their policy to say that homosexuality is fine. The minority said that those they were arguing with had changed the judgment of the Association on the matter without any new evidence about it. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 03:52 AM. |
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01-17-2007, 05:17 AM | #115 | ||||||
of the House of BĂ«or
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All I was trying to say that absolutely denying a feeling/orientation/etc. in you, denying a part of you as if it was nonexistent, that is definitely not good for you. You can't just wipe it out. As for acting upon it, if it's good or acceptable or not, well we obviously disagree. But then again, it's not us who are in such a situation. Quote:
So I'd add: I'll respect their decision, even if they don't agree with me. Can you say the same? Quote:
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01-17-2007, 12:20 PM | #116 | ||
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We don't know whether those laws we're setting up in civil unions are appropriate for homosexual relationships, but we'd be just throwing them on anyway and thus potentially hurting all our homosexual guinea pigs, as well as heterosexuals who might become involved in the legal tangle.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-17-2007, 12:26 PM | #117 | ||||||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-17-2007, 12:30 PM | #118 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-17-2007, 12:38 PM | #119 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I often hear from some of the pro-same-sex-marriage people that homosexuality is in nature, and is therefore "natural", and is therefore good/right. The last bit ("is therefore good/right") was the part I didn't think was necessarily a valid conclusion, which I illustrated by pointing out ANOTHER thing that occurs in nature and is therefore "natural" and that most people do NOT think is good/right. Quote:
Here I thought I was making a really good funny!!! The biological urge part was not only in an entirely different section than the ketchup joke, it was in an entirely different POST from the eating my son with ketchup joke. And you didn't even quote me right - I wrote "biological heterosexual urges", not merely biological urges. The biological heterosexual urges part was referring to some sexual urges that I had that I choose to not act on. No, I do NOT have an urge to eat my son with ketchup. I thought that it was so hugely obvious that it was a joke that I only put an "eek" smilie there. I guess next time I'll put a joke smilie there, too. If you truly thought that I had an urge to eat my son with ketchup ... well, I guess that explains a lot of things! Please quote me correctly! "Biological heterosexual urges"!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-17-2007 at 12:45 PM. |
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01-17-2007, 12:54 PM | #120 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, I'm caught up with the thread now! Better scurry off and do some errands - gotta go to the dreaded DMV and turn in my lovely California license plates
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-17-2007 at 12:59 PM. |
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