06-13-2006, 12:45 PM | #101 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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glad we've reached 101 post with just a couple of us, taking part on a very difficult subject.
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06-13-2006, 12:46 PM | #102 |
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ah, alright. no. no i don't. that would be saying that God had a bit of evil in Him. so no.
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
06-13-2006, 12:50 PM | #103 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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i hope i'm not being rude or anything, but why don't you think Eru has even a little bit of evil. After all, He allowed the valar to distroy Numenor, for example, despite the fact that they were wrongly corrupted, and that He should be punishing Sauron instead.
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06-13-2006, 01:06 PM | #104 | |
Elven Warrior
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It depends on what evil is, considered at the highest possible level (that is, Eru's). I have no problem with Finrod's statement that the joy of His children is His main purpose. Moreover, in letter 212 it is said that:
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06-13-2006, 01:18 PM | #105 |
Dreamweaver
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good point Lan. evil is never evil to the one doing it. for all the He does He has a divine purpose, and it can be interpreted by Men how they wish.
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
06-13-2006, 01:30 PM | #106 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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i like what you've put, but is Eru creating Melkor show that He has a mixture of both good and evil, and is capable of doing evil things, or is it that he just understands it.
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06-13-2006, 04:05 PM | #107 | ||
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Is there anything 'evil', if evil in itself is only a stage of more good? I esspecially like the way Tolkien pictured this in his letter #64:
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06-13-2006, 04:17 PM | #108 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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don't think me stupid or anything, but what does your first quote mean, what is Tolkien saying?
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06-13-2006, 09:34 PM | #109 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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am I right here? |
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06-13-2006, 10:18 PM | #110 |
Dreamweaver
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yes, but that doesn't mean that evil is ok. maybe stuff like...fire! fire can be good, helpful, like warmth, cooking, and (very good analogy here) when you burn down a forest to revive it. it can also kill and be quite naughty. naughtiness is not good. it's evil. bad evil.
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
06-13-2006, 10:22 PM | #111 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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06-13-2006, 10:26 PM | #112 |
Dreamweaver
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oh, i was just using an analogy there. not saying that fire is downright evil. (Narya, eh?)
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
06-13-2006, 11:02 PM | #113 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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good...otherwise I would have to smote you with the fire I wield! |
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06-13-2006, 11:11 PM | #114 |
Dreamweaver
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ah. glad i did than. untimely death my divine fire isn't that appealing...
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Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih... |
06-14-2006, 06:30 AM | #115 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i get it now.
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06-14-2006, 03:03 PM | #116 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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06-14-2006, 07:46 PM | #117 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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And Iluvatar spoke to Ulrmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province ? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost ! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists ; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth ! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.' Then Ulrmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulrno have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar. The conception of the other Auinu was more symmetrical. All angles and plains, rectangular oceans and triangular poles and everlasting lamps and no darkness. They probably originally concieved of rows upon rose of uniformed trees for a forest etc. ( I think I had a goog reference for that in the one those other Tolkien books too). Without Melkor there would be no snow capped mountains and no natural bridges formed by the erosion of the sea; in the world of tolkien without the destruction of the lamps there would have been no sun or the moon. Alas, further proof: And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwe the answers of Feanor to his heralds, Manwe wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.' Just as president bush and his masters ( for he is just a puppet) gain there one world government, through the human spirit it will become something of pure good and become his undoing, even as they grasp it for their evil purposes (just like lord palpitine in star wars-he is playing both sides/wake up people; he is the terrorists as well as the federal government). The human spirit can not be distinguished. So as america and the constitution was a great creation, slavery still remained evil. Bush and his masters will pay soon, there time is coming; all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing; can I get an amen!!!
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 06-14-2006 at 07:51 PM. |
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06-15-2006, 01:48 AM | #118 | |||
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06-15-2006, 07:09 AM | #119 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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but don't you consider that is a neccessity because what would be the point of being good if there is no evil to be opposite to.
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06-21-2006, 05:00 PM | #120 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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anyone?
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