Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Ararax]

well its interesting that there are books on creation, so as much can be taught about it as evolution, but obviously you havent read them, but i agree that it will never be taught in schools

[HOBBIT]

don't believe everything you read in books

[Ararax]

thank you captin obvious
same goes for book on evolution, its a theory not a fact, jsut because you believe it does nto make it out to be factual

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I DO have a problem with people trying to force their BELIEFs onto others.

With all due respect - unless it's you.

Surely not the adam and eve myth? In my school, there must be at least a handful of diff creation myths that the study body believes in - well there are that many diff religions at least, i'm fairly positive that more than half the school's student body are atheist or agnostic. Creation does not imply a christian god at all - it could also be any kind of aliens.

Personally, I think it would be best to present as many different myths as are (relatively) widely believed. Though, I must say that if there were only one, while it does make me uncomfortable to say this about my own religion, I think that if one myth were taught (something which, in the mythical hypothesis that beliefs which are not primarily atheistic were actually acknowledged in this day and age by government as more than just "religious institutions", and maybe, just maybe, VALID (yeah, right ) should not be necessary), the Adam and Eve one would, in my experience, be the best one, as it represents the belief of a) at least two (I believe three) different religions, and b) the great majority of those who believe in any creation myth; indeed, quite possibly the majority of people. However, confining it to a single creation myth should not be necessary, in the mythical hypothesis
Creation Science is nothing more than a cover to try to get religion taught in schools (for one thing).

You want to believe in it - so go ahead and keep believing in it .

To which it could be said, "You refuse to believe in it - so go ahead and keep rejecting it."

and they only make points by completely leaving out contrary evidence and/or completely misinterprting data and info.

Leaving out contrary evidence is something which both sides are guility of. And as for misinterpreting: only the evidence is absolute. By saying that they misinterpret the data, you state (implicitly) that you act on the premise that your interpretation is the correct one. What is so wrong about others having that same right?

[/quote]Doesn't it mean anything to you that even most (if not all, i don't know about all) CHRISITAN RELIGIOUS private schools teach evolution in science class and creation in religious studies? They keep em separate.[/quote]

Not any that I know, and I've been enrolled in three different ones in my time (due to moving).

You constantly say that you've evaluated both sides and picked creation, but it seems to me (just my own observations, correct me if I am wrong) that you had your mind made up beforehand.

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong [and I do mean that ]) that you had your mind up before you heard any creation evidence.

IMO, if you really looked at all the evidence you would probably believe in evolution - or at least evolution started by god (a supreme being).

Out of curiosity, why is Divine Evolution "less", as the statement "at least" implies?

But of course, we all know that the Mice rule this planet and the Earth was built by the Magrathean's to solve the question of life, the universe, and everything to which the answer is 42. Anyone who debates this is silly :P

Pfffft. The Magratheans are a myth. It is the Tyngroathi who constructed the Earth.

[HOBBIT]

With all due respect - unless it's you.

If thats what you think I am doing, then ok. I only discuss religious things in religious topics. I do not try to imprint my beliefs on others. I really don't. ALL i do is just SAY WHAT BELIEVE and also say what things others have said that I don't believe. I do not expect anyone to change their beliefs based on what I say. My intention was never to get people to think as I do.

If you are refering to me thinking that evolution is truth and of course should be taught in schools, then yes.

I really have no wish to have others believe exactly as I do. What fun would that be?

Personally, I think it would be best to present as many different myths as are (relatively) widely believed. Though, I must say that if there were only one, while it does make me uncomfortable to say this about my own religion, I think that if one myth were taught (something which, in the mythical hypothesis that beliefs which are not primarily atheistic were actually acknowledged in this day and age by government as more than just "religious institutions", and maybe, just maybe, VALID (yeah, right ) should not be necessary), the Adam and Eve one would, in my experience, be the best one, as it represents the belief of a) at least two (I believe three) different religions, and b) the great majority of those who believe in any creation myth; indeed, quite possibly the majority of people. However, confining it to a single creation myth should not be necessary, in the mythical hypothesis
Creation Science is nothing more than a cover to try to get religion taught in schools (for one thing).

Well if it is really "science," then why would ANY myth be taught? That is DEFINITELY not scientific. I have NO PROBLEM with the option of religious studies classes in public schools - already the study of many different religions was incorperated into my world history class this year.

To which it could be said, "You refuse to believe in it - so go ahead and keep rejecting it."

Ty, I will

Not any that I know, and I've been enrolled in three different ones in my time (due to moving).

The Christian private schools in your area don't ? that is interesting, thanks for that bit of info. All of them in my area (id assume all of NJ) do. They teach evolution in science classes and the creation story in religious study classes. I have also heard from many ppl who have been to christian private schools and they say the same. Go figure.

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong [and I do mean that ]) that you had your mind up before you heard any creation evidence.

I had my mind up before entering this topic, yes. But I was not raised an atheist or evolutionist or anything. I infact did choose myself with all the data. I guess I am agnostic. I was raised Jewish (parents wanted me to choose for myself and didnt want me to blame them later for not exposing me to religion) and I still am a little jewish - except for the fact that I don't believe in a lot of it.

Out of curiosity, why is Divine Evolution "less", as the statement "at least" implies?

Well, because it involves a supreme being still I still have not rulled out that possibility. If anything I'd believe in Divine Evolution over any young earth models.

Pfffft. The Magratheans are a myth. It is the Tyngroathi who constructed the Earth.

[afro-elf]

same goes for book on evolution, its a theory not a fact, jsut because you believe it does nto make it out to be factual

I'd be curious to see your defination of theory vs. fact. It seems form your statement that you are using the lay version of the definition.

In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation.


In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory


Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution.

[afro-elf]

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them.


Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world.


In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent."

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification.

[HOBBIT]

*bravo Afro-elf*

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
*bravo Afro-elf*

muchos gracias

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
If thats what you think I am doing, then ok. I only discuss religious things in religious topics. I do not try to imprint my beliefs on others.

Again, with all due respect: one could argue that the manner in which you attack the great majority of religions is doing that. I must say, that I find it interesting that it is (usually) the atheists who tell everyone that they are arrogant, judgemental, hypocritical, etc., rather than the Christians telling everyone that they're sinners, hellbound, etc. Quite fascinating how many kinds of proselytisers there are.

I do not expect anyone to change their beliefs based on what I say. My intention was never to get people to think as I do.

Sounds like someone I know.

If you are refering to me thinking that evolution is truth and of course should be taught in schools, then yes.

I was rather referring to the rather dogmatic way it seems that you approach arguments which have/may have religious connotations.

I really have no wish to have others believe exactly as I do. What fun would that be?

You WILL be assimiliated. Resistance is FUTILE.

Neither do I. Though I must say that by your derogatory statements about those who believe differently than you (especially that scientists who believe in creationism are not true scientists), that is an impression which can be gotten. Not of course, that I believe that, just that it is something which you can be interpreted as (implicitly) saying.

Well if it is really "science," then why would ANY myth be taught? That is DEFINITELY not scientific. I have NO PROBLEM with the option of religious studies classes in public schools - already the study of many different religions was incorperated into my world history class this year.

Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, no myth would be necessary for the essentials of creation science. However, I think it is important to know where one is coming from. Without creation myths, there is no reason for creation science. While obviously an in-depth study wouldn't be necessary, I think that a basic knowledge of creation myths would be something included.

Ty, I will

As I'm sure Rian will.

The Christian private schools in your area don't ? that is interesting, thanks for that bit of info. All of them in my area (id assume all of NJ) do. They teach evolution in science classes and the creation story in religious study classes. I have also heard from many ppl who have been to christian private schools and they say the same. Go figure.

Make that areas, and as far as I know. I don't go through all of them, finding out how they handle it. But there is a vast amount of variance amongst Christianity; the fact that some believe one way does not really have much bearing on others.

If I remember correctly, JD informed us that the Eastern coast folks (especially Joi...Jersey ) were more intelligent and enlightened, as a whole, than those country hicks further west.

I had my mind up before entering this topic, yes. But I was not raised an atheist or evolutionist or anything. I infact did choose myself with all the data. I guess I am agnostic. I was raised Jewish (parents wanted me to choose for myself and didnt want me to blame them later for not exposing me to religion) and I still am a little jewish - except for the fact that I don't believe in a lot of it.

Agnostic? So then, you don't think that man can know if God(s) exist...I could have sworn you'd said that there was no God, and all religions were man-made. Ah well, my memory is failing in my old age.

Well, because it involves a supreme being still I still have not rulled out that possibility. If anything I'd believe in Divine Evolution over any young earth models.

And that makes less worthy/worthwhile, because of a variance as to an undeterminable cause?

Well, that's common knowledge.

NOTE: Emoticons in quotes have been largely removed, due to a smiley limit. Emoticons I would have put are also removed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact.

"Some" biologists. Or are those who don't agree with you a bunch of liars who call themselves biologists?

It is also a fact

Your opinion.

By the way, since you're posting here, I've often wondered what you meant when you said that you have "too much blood on your hands" in topics like this. Do you mean that you've killed people (I doubt this one )? Destroyed faith? What?

[afro-elf]

"Some" biologists. Or are those who don't agree with you a bunch of liars who call themselves biologists

Not when they forget to leave their religous beliefs at the lab door.


quote:
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It is also a fact
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Your opinion.

Did you just skip the rest of the article?

The part that gave a definition of fact and theory.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"Not when they forget to leave their religous beliefs at the lab door."

Hmm. I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding. When they forget to leave their religious beliefs, then they are not liars and false scientists?

Also, I love the way people say that, as if atheists always leave their lack of religion at the lab door.

Did you just skip the rest of the article?

The part that gave a definition of fact and theory.

Personally, I never saw Rian as "perverse", but each to his own.

[HOBBIT]

GW - im not limited to anything I have to believe, my views change. I probably did say things about there not being any god. I am undecided, but I favor more evolution, athiesm. My veiws and ideas change daily. I AM very openminded. It also seems more likely to me that organized religions are wrong.

I really am still keeping an open mind to what Rian is saying, but she still has not seem any NEW arugments for creation or any NEW arugments against evolution. I've seen all the ones she has mentioned so far.

[HOBBIT]

and btw, we are more enlightened up here. New England and Middle Colonies ares.

[afro-elf]

When they forget to leave their religious beliefs, then they are not liars and false scientists?

No, I do not think they are liars, but have a conflict of interest in a manner of speaking.


scientist try to make their beliefs fit facts

religionist try to make the facts fit their beliefs.

Also, I love the way people say that, as if atheists always leave their lack of religion at the lab door

If they are "good" scientist they shouldn't.

They are two mutually exclusive realms.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
GW - im not limited to anything I have to believe, my views change. I probably did say things about there not being any god. I am undecided, but I favor more evolution, athiesm. My veiws and ideas change daily. I AM very openminded. It also seems more likely to me that organized religions are wrong.

I know what you mean, lately I've been exploring religion with a more open mind as well. My views have been changing a lot, too. This time last year, I would never have considered joining the Catholic Church. I also might very well have instantly jumped away from Kabbalah, despite my lifelong belief that the Jews are God's chosen people (God LOOOOOOOVES you, HOBBIT! ). I believed that Satanism was actually the worship of the Christian Satan. I probably hadn't even heard of Wicca. I have grown and changed very much as a person in the last year, so let me say that I certainly know what you mean about changing your views and ideas.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by afro-elf

If they are "good" scientist they shouldn't.

So then, Atheism is a prerequisite for science?

[afro-elf]

Don't keep your mind so open that your brains fall out.

[HOBBIT]

No, they are separate things as long as you don't let your personal religious beliefs interfere (is what i know Afro-Elf is trying to say).