04-18-2004, 09:08 PM | #1161 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
It makes more sense that it would be "Intelligent Design" theory, rather. No serious evolution book teaches any of those fairy tales, not "hopeful monster", "panspermia", nor "Intelligent Design". EDIT: get your butt back on topic, Rian! This is about Religion, not fairy tales of Creationism. Last edited by Ruinel : 04-18-2004 at 09:12 PM. |
|
04-19-2004, 01:19 AM | #1162 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
04-19-2004, 04:28 AM | #1163 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Eeb, that was my dumb question I think which caused that!
This is kinda going down the same route as the 'Questions for Biology' thread... Again I ask, why does religion (or at least philosophy) and science have so many squabbles? Aren't they essentially searching for the same thing? Also, an abstract question: what do you think of the philosophic questions posed by the film the Matrix?
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-19-2004, 05:34 AM | #1164 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Creationism has its own thread... for a reason too it seems - quite the debate on the subject.
It's eeeeeeearly on Monday morning Rian, I'll come by later for that promised post.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-19-2004, 01:02 PM | #1165 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
04-19-2004, 01:08 PM | #1166 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
Religion searches for an explanation of a world they do not understand through myth and stories, void of evidence, but based on faith alone. Religion and Science clash when the truth and evidence counter religious myth and create doubt in faith. [edit]Also, what "philosophic question posed by the film the Matrix"? Last edited by Ruinel : 04-19-2004 at 01:14 PM. |
|
04-19-2004, 01:13 PM | #1167 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
And I'd like a list of those "highly regarded scientists" you were talking about. |
|
04-19-2004, 01:25 PM | #1168 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK, I have a bit of time, I'll start posting my thoughts on your post, Nurvi. But I warn you that it's a complex topic, IMO, and it will not be a quick discussion!
Quote:
Now since that sentence had too many negatives and it was too confusing, let me restate it. I find it interesting and illuminating that when you assume that there is no Hell (because you don't like how it feels, I think) that you immediately and logically see an inference that you don't like at all - namely, that sin wouldn't matter. And in your mind and heart you KNOW that sin DOES matter. I think this is something to think about ... perhaps you are wrong about there being no Hell. I certainly imagine that you would agree that "feeling" or "believing" something doesn't make a difference as to whether or not it's actually true, altho I think it can be an indicator to the truth. See, IMO, the whole issue starts with the question "Is there a God?" And for THAT particular question, there IS a yes/no answer; there DOES exist an absolute truth about it. You can quibble about definitions of God, but it doesn't matter - the question is of a type that HAS a yes/no answer - altho at this point in time, we humans cannot prove it "scientifically" in a lab. But that should NOT stop us from attempting to answer it. There are LOTS of worthwhile questions that cannot be answered in a lab, and it is the BETTER thing, IMO, to attempt to answer them, even tho you may be wrong. When I first met my husband, I liked him right off - lovely dark hair, tall, very courteous and very masculine. We met at a Bible study - then didn't see each other for several months! (we were both going on business trips a lot). I next saw him at the 4th of July party - our group went 4-wheeling on some property the church owned and was going to build on. I thought that perhaps he liked me, too. Did I run to the store and purchase some scales and scientifically measure his heart to try to answer my question? No. The question is not scientifically answerable. But it IS a suitable question to make inferences from, which I did at the end of the 4-wheeling time. Everyone was headed over to someone's house for food and swimming, and he needed a ride (the people he came with had to go early). Some girls kept telling him "Come with us! Come with us" (I wanted to kick them! ) But I assumed that IF he liked me, then he would choose to go with ME to the party, so I smiled at him and said "I have room in my car, you can come with me if you'd like to!" and started walking to my car. When I got there - there he was and the rest, as they say, is history! (Of course the case could have been that he liked me and was too shy to take up that hint, but if he was that kind of guy, I didn't WANT to go out with him. I gave him PLENTY of encouragement - quite a nice smile! - and if he wasn't decisive enough to follow up on it, then he wasn't the kind of guy I like, anyway.) Anyway, all that to say that I think we can really analyze and discuss these issues in a profitable way, even tho they are NOT proveable in a scientific sense. And one of the best ways to consider these questions, IMO, is to:
Do you see what I mean? Do you agree?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-19-2004 at 01:31 PM. |
|
04-19-2004, 01:27 PM | #1169 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
And I'm too lazy to dig up the scientists' names, but if you go to TalkOrigins (the evolutionists' "scriptures" ) and search, you'll find them
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-19-2004 at 01:33 PM. |
|
04-19-2004, 01:33 PM | #1170 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
04-19-2004, 03:44 PM | #1171 | |||||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Yea you responded! I don't want a quick discussion, where's the fun in that? I agree, a complex topic such as this needs to be looked at thouroughly. Quote:
Quote:
However I find Hell more difficult to comprehend. Doesn't God forgive our sins? Therefore we wouldn't go to Hell. And where do you draw the line? We are all sinners. She probably doesn't forgive sins automatically. I am confused on this point though, hence, Hell doesn't sit quite right in my worldview at the moment. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-19-2004 at 05:31 PM. |
|||||||
04-19-2004, 04:24 PM | #1172 | |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Quote:
By definition, philosophy, which is the basis for religion, searches for truth. Science is completely invalid in human terms; of course certain things can be proven, but what is the purpose of doing so if you cannot say why? Why do you think people like Newton were into philosophy and the esoteric? It is the 'why' to accompany the 'how'. Do you not find, as I do, the more you delve into science, the more you find an order which it is folly to attribute to chance?
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. Last edited by Janny : 04-19-2004 at 04:25 PM. |
|
04-19-2004, 04:25 PM | #1173 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
I would be considered "religious" by most people, yet I have no problem at all with science (and if you're fair, you'll admit this - the only problem I ever have with evolutionism and creationism is when the unproven inferences are declared to be true, or when an unproven idea is declared to falsify another idea). I think science is great! It's a wonderful universe we live in - let's find out about it! Woo hoo! From a discussion on the clotting of blood : "The modification of prothrombin does not happen by accident. Like virtually all biochemical reactions, it requires catalysis by a specific enzyme, however, the conversion of Glu to Gla needs another component: vitamin K. Vitamin K is not a protein; rather, it is a small molecule, like the 11-cis-retinal (described in chapter 1) that is necessary for vision.... "
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
04-19-2004, 04:29 PM | #1174 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
I think people's minds and hearts were made to search, tho. Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
04-19-2004, 04:34 PM | #1175 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
04-19-2004, 04:45 PM | #1176 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
'Good' to the latter.
I didn't mean to demean work of scientist or purpose of science, all I meant was that it doesn't answer why, and the scientists who attempt to are seen as on the fringe.
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-19-2004, 05:00 PM | #1177 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Oh, I see - I misunderstood you - sorry
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-19-2004, 05:02 PM | #1178 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Ah, put it down to the incomprehensible style of the Jannmeister.
But the point stands, science doesn't search for why everything works.
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
04-19-2004, 05:29 PM | #1179 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
04-19-2004, 05:44 PM | #1180 | |||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Ok now to respond to the rest of your post...
Quote:
Despite this, I agree, we should never stop delving into issues, and analyzing them, and trying to find answers. Quote:
Your story about you and your husband is very sweet. With respect to the "debate" (for lack of a better word), I'm not sure what you're saying. Unless it's just that not everything can be proven scientifically. Quote:
I don't completely agree with the list though. If your assume your hypothesis is true at the start, you would introduce bias into the experiment. However, you can test your hypothesis objectively. For example: Null Hypothesis: Yellow cedar and Western redcedar are the same species. Alternate Hypothesis: Yellow cedar and Western Redcedar are not the same species. Inference: they are the same species, then they will produce viable offspring. (The offspring can intern, reproduce.) Test: Cross Yellow cedar with Western redcedar. Cross any offspring. Results: I have no idea what the results would really be. But let's say you got a few offspring in the first cross, and none in the second. 1st cross: 17 offspring in 1000 attempts. 2nd cross: 0 offspring in 17 attempts. Conclusions: Analyze the results statisically to determine if there's a (statistically) significant number of offspring. (Since there were 0 offspring in the second cross the numbers would say they were not the same species.) Therefore you would reject the null hypothesis, in favour of the alternate hypothesis. Do you feel this would be an objective, scientific method? Is this the sort of reasoning you were getting at in your example?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-19-2004 at 05:48 PM. |
|||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[TB?] News Thread | trolls' bane | General Messages | 35 | 06-22-2007 03:33 AM |
Buddy's Thread | Ruinel | General Messages | 57 | 02-11-2004 12:10 AM |
The Entmoot Presidential Debate | Darth Tater | Entmoot Archive | 163 | 12-06-2002 09:44 PM |
The Anti-theist Thread | afro-elf | General Messages | 1123 | 05-09-2002 03:46 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |