09-07-2005, 03:12 PM | #1141 |
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(and please do NOT accuse me of being deceitful; I may not be a 100% perfectly clear writer (but neither are you!!) but my motives are totally goodhearted and honest in these discussions. I do NOT "spin" (unless you think spin means giving an honest opinion, in which case you do, too); I do NOT tell you to "shut up"; I am NOT "being misleading" (at least intentionally, which it seems like you're implying; as far as unintentional, we can both be misleading, as is clearly shown by the evidence ); I do NOT set "traps", and please do NOT call what I write "crap".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-07-2005, 03:16 PM | #1142 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Maybe they are of similar abilities, maybe of more, maybe of vastly more; the relevant part is that they have a similar intelligence such that we can recognize it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 03:16 PM | #1143 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Caution *********caution*********
Tone It Down Guys
Debate The Issues Don't Flame Or Incite Nor Make Condesending Remarks In Violation Of The Rules.
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09-07-2005, 03:22 PM | #1144 |
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Caution acknowledged
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-07-2005, 03:25 PM | #1145 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i'm kidding, of course
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09-07-2005, 03:34 PM | #1146 | |
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science is the study of our universe, not what is beyond it... this does not mean that there is nothing beyond it... it is just outside the realm of observation and scientific theory... once again, it is the realm of philosophy if ID people wish to theorize that aliens engineered life on earth, it could be considered scientific to an extent... but it wouldn't really answer any of the big questions whether you admit it or not, ID people want to point to the "godlike being", which is why it will never be accepted as science
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09-07-2005, 04:13 PM | #1147 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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and whether you admit it or not, most evolutionists want to point to there being no god.
"What is a universe created from?" IMO, ID (rightly) doesn't concern itself with the question, just like evolution (or so you guys say so often) doesn't concern itself with how the goo got there. "science is the study of our universe, not what is beyond it... " Yes, we study what is IN our universe and try to discern, through analysis, if we think an intelligence is behind it. "if ID people wish to theorize that aliens engineered life on earth ... " So if we get a readable signal from outer space, we'll just ignore it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-07-2005, 04:30 PM | #1148 | ||||
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ID is a theory of everything we see... so it does have to answer that question Quote:
ID studies from A (creator) to B (life, the universe and everything) ... in the latter, A is not a part that is physical, observable or within our universe Quote:
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09-07-2005, 07:56 PM | #1149 |
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I think the basic difference between SETI and ID (and between "humanlike" and "godlike") is that SETI is looking for evidence of things that we could do or we think we will be able to do soon - radio broadcasts, power plant emissions, etc - while ID is looking for evidence of something we have no expectation of being able to do in the future - the (intelligent) design of life over a span of epochs. The former is humanlike activity - we can or will be able to do it, and so we can say "that looks like us, and is therefore intelligent (we assume)." The latter is godlike - we can't do it, we don't expect to be able to do it, and we have no idea if it has intelligence behind it.
We have no idea if there is intelligence behind it because we don't know what to compare it to. I can compare an arrowhead to a rock, or a radio broadcast to the radio emissions of a radioactive element, and say "the first one is what the second one looks like after intelligence has acted on it." However, there is nothing I can look at next to life and say "this is life before intelligence designed it." Also, since there is no being I know of (God excepted) with the ability to intelligently design life, and there is a theory out there that posits a naturalistic evolution of life, Occam's Razor demands that I not multiply entities by theorizing about the existence of such a being without further proof. (And I did update the Wheel thread)
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09-08-2005, 09:27 AM | #1150 |
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i could not have summed it up better CC!
it's a matter of degree really... ID is just too much of a "leap of faith" as opposed to something like SETI or evolution theory
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09-08-2005, 09:52 AM | #1151 | ||
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Basically we all have theorys and there is inconclusive evidence for both theorys, the evolutionist side believes in the works of darwin. Intelligent Design advocates believe in the bible and more recent evidences. But since no one knows anyone who was around a million years ago (or even six thousand years ago) there is no absolute, proof for either side. Yet on both sides there is faith to their theory (for whatever reasons) a firm atheist is not going to be moved by anything but the most absolute evidence for creation; on the side other of the coin neither is a firm creationist going to be convinced of evoulution. My point is that even though there is no absolute proof for either side of the origin debate both sides have a belief system of certain things that you simply have to believe(without proof)
and if you define religion by faith in things not seen then it would make evolution another religion(maybe they can get a tax exemp status )
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09-08-2005, 10:34 AM | #1152 | |
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both are certainly theories, and as such inconclusive
the question is which is a scientific theory and should be taught extensively in science class (as opposed to just mentioned and explained somewhat briefly) scientific theory does not depend upon "truth", it depends upon observability and testablility of the causes and effects implied in the theory... i.e. for evolution we can observe the basic elements in our universe and observe life... evolution theory attempts to connect the two... can elements become life? ID attempts to connect life with and unobservable and untestable "cause"... this doesn't make it wrong, or even "not a theory"... but it does make it "unscientific" CC brought up Occam's Razor, which is a useful line of thought here... Quote:
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09-08-2005, 12:48 PM | #1153 | |
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09-08-2005, 02:06 PM | #1154 | |||
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and to answer your question about teaching evolution (how did we get back here?) all theorys should be taught with the understanding that they are only theorys
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09-08-2005, 02:14 PM | #1155 | |
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09-08-2005, 02:19 PM | #1156 | ||
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the cause in evolution theory is time ... or specifically, the idea that things change over time... you can argue that a particle can not become a living thing over time... but all the parts the theory is based on are things we know exist... i.e. particles, life, the passage of time ID includes a big fat "part" we do not know exists... and can not even imply exists from anything we view in the real world... the "intelligent designer" Quote:
and i agree... i said much earlier and many times before that i really think religion should be required study in the middle and latter years of schooling... i think it is just as important as reading, writing, math, history and science... but give it it's own spot, and let others keep theirs
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09-08-2005, 02:39 PM | #1157 | ||
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there is no larger a part missing from ID than from evolution, It is a proven fact that something can not come from nothing. There are no experiments that took absolutely nothing and came out with not so much as a single cell much less a living organism
and i agree we are not taught enough about religion in normal school.
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09-08-2005, 02:41 PM | #1158 | |||
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09-08-2005, 02:49 PM | #1159 | |
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What do you mean? How would it imply a designer? Whats the point exactly of makeing chimpanzee dna look almost identical to human dna if everything was just created? And whats the point of having so much junk dna by the way? i mean if mutations are not important and creation is the way things happen then why have all that uneccessary mess?
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09-08-2005, 02:50 PM | #1160 | |
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