04-15-2004, 05:47 PM | #1141 | |
Quasi Evil
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04-15-2004, 05:56 PM | #1142 | |||||||
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In addition, how could we think about something in a non-human way? Our brains, culture, and everything that influences how we think is very human. BTW Rian, my post is in the middle of page 57. Hint hint.
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04-15-2004, 06:58 PM | #1143 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nurvingiel
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I"ll just repeat it here instead of linking to it: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- (repeat of answer to Nurvi's pokes) I'm out of time, Nurvi, so poke me again later and I'll share my POV with you (thanks for asking). In the meantime, tho, I'll say that UNLESS you believe that there IS an ultimate truth in certain areas (and I'm talking ultimate truth about things like how the world got here and how humans are made, NOT things like what's the best ice-cream flavor in the world, which does NOT have an ultimate truth associated with it ) then it's not much use discussing the subject, wouldn't you agree? IOW, there may not be an ultimate truth about the best sport to plaly, but there ARE ultimate truths about things that I kinda think of "rewindable and playable on a tv". And if the technology existed, and there was a giant videocamera recording things, then we could rewind the tape and play it on a tv and see if macroevolution really DID happen, or if God really DID create us essentially as we are now. Do you see what I mean? If you can't assent to that idea, then there's really no use in discussing these differering worldview possibilities, IMO. Do you agree? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I'm waiting on YOU to answer my question about ultimate (or absolute) truth before I remark any further on your post
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-15-2004 at 06:59 PM. |
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04-15-2004, 07:13 PM | #1144 | |
The Intermittent One
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in my belief, there is no such thing as an Ultimate truth. We will never know anything beyond our own plane of existence. at least not until Nirvana (or Heaven for u Christians) and maybe not even then. i dont want to start up an old arguement, but for me, creationism is a myth, based entirely on a system of religious beliefs, whereas evolutionism (and P E) are theories based on factual evidence |
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04-15-2004, 07:26 PM | #1145 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IOW, I would say that "what is the best flavor of ice cream?" does NOT have an absolute truth answer, while "how did humans get here?" DOES have an absolute truth answer, and if somehow we could have seen it happen, we would know the answer.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-15-2004, 07:39 PM | #1146 | ||
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As Rian explained, the term 'born again' comes from a conversation Jesus had with someone... you can see the full account in the first half of John chapter 3. Jesus tells him he must be 'born again' - when the man is puzzled by this, Jesus tells him He's not talking about natural birth, but a spiritual birth. We Christians believe that this is what happens at the point when someone seeks God's forgiveness through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross. It's really the point at which someone becomes a Christian. It has nothing to do with reincarnation (which would be a subsequent physical birth), your mind is not wiped clean of everything you ever knew, thought or felt, you are not turned into a zombie... you still feel very much like yourself, only more so... better, if anything. Let me relate my own experience: In my early teens, I probably thought I was a Christian - I went to church some, I accepted some of what I heard to an extent - but it was sort of a mental assent - not really totally taking it in. I wavered a bit even in that though... uncertain if there really was a God, uncertain about the various things I heard at church, etc. At one point, when I was 15, I started to really understand the gospel... the core teachings of Christianity... that I was a 'sinner' (a term we don't like, yet we don't mind saying, 'I'm not perfect' - the two can be interchangeable, really), that Jesus had come to live among us and to die for us, that I could go to God in prayer, asking Him to forgive me of my sins in Jesus' name, and 'ask Jesus into my heart' to give me new life. Initially I resisted. I would go to church, week-after-week, hearing more and more confirmation of this, feeling a 'tug at my heart' to respond to it (which I could not understand or explain) - but I kept putting it off, looking for excuses. It was a small church, and I don't know if I had ever seen it done, but I felt that if I was going to do it, I needed to march down to the altar / prayer rail at the front, when the pastor gave the 'invitation' - and do it publicly. I resisted doing that for a number of reasons; natural shyness, wondering what my friends would think, wondering if THEY even 'got it' - any excuse I could think of. Yet, guided by my 'heart' - I just knew I had to do it. Finally I gave in. I went forward and prayed some form of what's called 'The sinner's prayer' - as I said, confessing my sin to God (not like He didn't know, but I needed to tell Him) and resolving to try my best to avoid sin, accepting Jesus' suffering as my atonement and asking for forgiveness - and asking Him to come into my heart. I didn't cry... as I said, I hadn't seen this much or at all, but somehow I thought I was supposed to cry. I was taught to accept by faith that God had forgiven me... and I did feel some sort of assurance in my heart. I also felt different somehow. Like I said, I wasn't a zombie or a robot, but it was as though I had been 'blind' in a way, and could now see... because I saw things from a different perspective. I cared about people much more. Many things started to make sense which hadn't made sense before.(EDIT: I definitely felt changed!) Now that was many years ago. It didn't take away all of life's problems, but it makes them easier to bear, I believe. I have great joy, peace, love, hope and contentment in my heart... and I claim that this comes from God, through His Son Jesus, by the work of the Holy Spirit. I was born again... into a spiritual family... and became a Child of God! (EDIT:So I believe that we ALL are naturally separated from God, but that He has gone and made a way for us to be reconciled to Him... and that this is it.) That way is open to anyone who would go there... *you may also want to see my brief (honest!) explanation of why Jesus needed to die for us in the 'Mel Gibsons Jesus Film' thread in 'Entertainment' forum - 6th post on 9th page... oh, plus I think I made a pretty witty post there yesterday! *
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-15-2004 at 08:06 PM. |
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04-15-2004, 08:39 PM | #1147 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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very nice story Val
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04-15-2004, 11:10 PM | #1148 | |||
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Wow Valandil, that was really moving. Now I know what you mean about being born again.
Do all people who are born again fall under the same "banner"? I always thought there was actually a subset (for lack of a better word) of Christianity of born again people. Quote:
Anyway, I agree with what you say about ultimate truth in some areas. ie. we could watch the video tape of the history of the world (made by Mel Gibson ) and find out how evolution did really (or not) happen. There's no ultimate truth about best ice cream because that's an opinion, and there's no real right answer. But there is one way that humans and other creatures came into being, which, not having a video, we can't conclusively discern). Are we on the same page about ultimate truths? What you said is what I think about ultimate truths. Like what the universe is composed of, etc. I agree that we should both know what the other means before going on in the discussion. Yea more comments. *is excited*
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-16-2004, 12:27 PM | #1149 | ||
Elf Lord
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While some members of more mainstream denominations use it to describe a personal renewal of faith or conversion experience, the doctrine of the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist churches (among others) rejects the Fundamentalist interpretation and says that the process of being 'born-again' refers to the rite of Holy Baptism. Quote:
Lutheran http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2613 Orthodox http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/BAPTISM.htm [p[/url]
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 04-16-2004 at 12:57 PM. |
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04-16-2004, 07:32 PM | #1150 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I have some disagreements with Catholic doctrine, one of them being that since God gave us free will, I don't see how a baby being bapitzed can have made a free will choice in the matter. But no time to get into that now - but neither do I agree with the trite example about the crusade.
Nurvi - I'm glad we're in agreement about the truth thing - we can hold an intelligent discussion now! That can't be done if one (or both) sides can't see the difference between truth and opinion statements. However, it will prob. have to wait until Monday - weekends are always bad for me to Moot, and this one is particularly busy. Give me another poke on Monday! And for starters, maybe re-think the "egotistical" comment - Why do you say it's egotistical? Can you think of ways that it would NOT be egotistical? cya
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-16-2004, 08:56 PM | #1151 | ||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Your supposition in a nut shell is basically that well it cant be assumed because its based on a negative. Well sure we can. First off we can because don’t forget there are DOZENS of other verifications for evolution. It doesn’t all rest on the back of punctuated equilibrium. Evolution shows up everywhere and thoroughly saturates nature with its reality. So when a theory has worked so well in so many different ways scientists will want to see how various parts of it can be best explained. So they come up with something like punctuated equilibrium to be a possible explanation for the current fossil record based on the fact that evolution can be seen in so many ways so what could be going on here. That’s all. Its just one sliver you realize. No one sat down and came up with this and said A HA! IVE PROVED EVOLUTION! No evolution was established by the time they came up with this. Its simply a component. Heres an example of my own of what I mean: lets say you have two clocks. The one on the left has an hour, minute and second hand. The one on the right has an hour and minute hand but NO second hand. You watch them both for five minutes straight. Without taking your eyes off of either of them (they are next to each other). The clock with the second hand will show a nice gradual smooth display of time passing as the second hand roles easily around the face of the clock five full times. Only at the end might you notice that the minute hand has gone from one number to the next. Now if you watch the other clock, it wont be nearly as smooth a display. It will just sit there for 60 seconds and then BIP the minute hand will move from one hash to the next. This will happen four more times. And then the shows over. Not nearly as clear and easy viewing as the other clock. But guess what BOTH clocks show the SAME time! Its simply that the second clock doesn’t make it as obvious as the first one. But we can STILL assume that five minutes passed on both clocks because of what we know about the physics of time, the construction of the clocks (how gears work, how springs play in, how the machine parts create movement, etc.), and half a dozen other things that have long been established as to their reliability in the field of clockwork. Just because we don’t happen to see the second hand on that one clock DOESN’T mean that time doesn’t exist. We can therefore conclude that the second clock displays a kind of “punctuated time keeping” since we cannot observe a second hand. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-16-2004, 09:17 PM | #1152 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You have apparently never understood my stand on the issue if you say "recent". I've always said I consider there to be support for both theories, but MORE for creationism. I'm done with this topic now, I think it should go over to the creationism thread if it continues, but I'm not interested I'll consider your denial suggestion, and hope you'll consider that you're in denial about evolution/creationism, too
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-16-2004, 09:23 PM | #1153 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(BTW - here's a link to my creationist thread mega summary post, where I say that both theories are supported by evidence: here )
So take THAT! *bops IRex over the head with a disputed transitional fossil* EDIT - *checks to see if the link works, and re-reads entire post* wow, what an openminded person that R*an is! She's probably really nice and incredibly gorgeous, too!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-16-2004 at 09:25 PM. |
04-17-2004, 12:52 AM | #1154 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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all this talk about being born again.... I was never really born again. I was raised Catholic and I've accepted it as the true teaching and faith ever since I can remember. I've also accepted the fact that Jesus died for humanity since I was little. (too bad Gwai isn't here alot...he could probably explain the Catholic stance on being born again much better than I )
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04-17-2004, 12:52 AM | #1155 | |||
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This is my "egotistical" comment from p. 57. I will comment on this now, but I'll wait until Monday to poke you about the rest.
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IOW, since we can't prove it's right, it is egotistical to assume that one worldview is right and another is wrong, IMHO. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong in believing in any worldview, just it's not fair to assume it's more correct than another one.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-17-2004, 10:27 AM | #1156 | |
Elf Lord
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It may have been a possibility that "it's turtles all the way down", but this turns out not to be the case. Take the Aztec worldview, for example. They sincerely believed that if they stopped ripping the hearts out of their enemies as sacrifices to the gods, the world would come to an end. They stopped (were stopped); it didn't- seems pretty conclusively proven wrong. Though I'm sure if there were Aztec theologians still around, they would have been able to figure out some argument to justify their original cosmology... people are very good at re-interpreting the facts to allow them to hold onto disproven beliefs ('cough'Creationists'cough')
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04-17-2004, 11:42 PM | #1157 | ||
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Well okay fine. I readjust my statement to say worldviews that have not been conclusively disproven are, obviously, all possible.
Creationism has not been conclusively disproven. Evolutionism is a valid alternative theory. They can both possibly exist, because neither theory has been proven, or disproven. However, there are probably many other aspects of the Aztec worldview that are still possible. EDIT: Actually, the world has come to and end for the Aztecs unfortunately. Maybe they were right after all.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-17-2004 at 11:55 PM. |
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04-17-2004, 11:58 PM | #1158 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*cough* evolutionist's "hopeful monster" theory *cough*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-18-2004, 06:36 AM | #1159 |
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Aww, I want to understand this without a PhD in something. In a nutshell what would those theories be?
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04-18-2004, 05:29 PM | #1160 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Altho you prob. didn't intend it, I think "in a nutshell" is where these ideas belong
(sorry, just couldn't resist ) Anyway, it's basically this: panspermia : the idea that life on this earth was brought here from other planets/aliens. This, of course, only removes the question of where we all came from one level back; it doesn't solve the real question. hopeful monsters : the idea that changes from one species to another were NOT accumulated, small changes, but instead, multiple, HUGE "overnight" changes; literally in one case that a flying bird somehow mysteriously hatched out of a dinosaur egg (in a book that was approved by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the American Council on Education). Again, this does not prove macroevolution; it's just an idea that cannot be tested scientifically. Google searches will give you a few more details. These are both ideas that I've seen presented by the evolutionary camp. People are free to come up with ideas, and if they ever can be framed so that they can be tested scientifically, then they will either stand or fall scientifically. As they are now, they are outside the realm of being able to be scientifically tested, so they're just interesting ideas.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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