05-19-2004, 05:23 PM | #1101 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I did NOT imply action at all; you're wrong there. You can call my "agent" your "observer", if you would like to. No difference to me. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-19-2004 at 05:29 PM. |
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05-20-2004, 12:52 AM | #1102 |
Elf Lord
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"Are you suggesting reality as a subjective construct?"
I think we already had this discussion. But no, I mean beyond the normal sense that we constantly construct reality in our heads. An "objective" construct is what I am refering to, "I think I see that within the human consciousness, but there must be word that describes actuality without consciousness." Kant had a phrase for it, which you are probably familair with.... I prefer the term "possibility". However conciousness is a rather fuzzy term in and of itself.... You'll have to go look up Wheeler's later work, but basically, until something is interacted with in some form, it remains a vague fuzzy cloud of possibility. "And by "observer point" you imply this as a minimum requirement, correct? Even that observer point must be subject to relative position of other constructs of which is a part and so must have it's own observation point." Correct. Particles count as observers, and multiple observations are possible. It is in fact necessary, because any interaction can be viewed from at least two vantage points (if not more- vastly more) possibility and observer are in fact interchangeable mathmatically, and probably conceptually.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-20-2004, 01:09 AM | #1103 |
the Shrike
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As interesting as it can be for a discussion on hermeneutics (existentialist methodologies, etc) and Immanuel Kant, I don't think it's quite in line with 'evidence for creationism'.
And if this goddamned internet connection drops one more, I'm going to bite somebody's head off. *goes off to unplug the airport cord YET AGAIN*
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
05-20-2004, 01:28 AM | #1104 |
Elf Lord
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"And why should I accept your opinion? Do you have supporting evidence? "
Tain't my opinion. It's the opinion of a good many theoretical astrophysicists and quantum physicists. I only wish I could claim it was my original opinion. But If you are asking if I am "of that opinion", then yes. I could offer you evidence, but it would look a lot like long strings of incomprehensible numbers to you. If you are really serious about wanting evidence, I would refer you to some of John Wheeler's later work, and others. I can even jog downstairs to the rference department and ask for the relevant journal articles if you want. "Unless you wish to argue that everything is an illusion (in which case I'll leave you happily alone) then it's logically necessary that SOMETHING must be self-existent, whether it's God or the mass of something that supposedly the universe came from. God would quality as an observer; the mass of something wouldn't, so can I conclude that if there's no God then there is no matter?" Tangental. No, for illusion to exist there must be an observer capable of perception that can be "fooled". The fact that you can be fooled is in fact proof that something exists, which is the hole in solophism. However you're hounding off down the wrong metaphysical track here.... I think you misunderstand the concept of "possibility" as a conceptual construct. What makes you think that existance is a steady state? "Are you absolutely sure that the light goes off when you close the refrigerator door" is about the strongest hint I'll give you here. Matter isn't at all what I'm talking 'bout. Think fifth dimensional construct intruding into a four dimensional space. Do the parts of the 5D construct "exist" if for some reason they don't happen to be concurrent with the 4D "space"? It depends VERY heavily on the observer viewpoint, not to mention that the fact that an "observer" exists adds an extra N to the entire construct... "If by your previous statement, "All god [supreme being, azathoth, what have you] ever created was possibility.", you count "god [supreme being, azathoth, what have you]" as an observer, then I can agree with you." They are not neccesarily the same thing, and it is in fact possible (but unweildy, to say the least) to posit a prime mover that does not act as an observer. But that's probably beyond the scope of this discussion. "I did NOT imply action at all; you're wrong there. You can call my "agent" your "observer", if you would like to. No difference to me." This is unclear to me. Action is any interaction, from simple observation to collision. Simple (hah) existence is itself an action, because it implies being observed, which is the basic form of interaction... You may not have known you were implying it, but you certainly couldn't avoid doing so.... "You seemed to be saying that ALL that existed was "possibility". If that's so, then I disagree - " That is, with one small change, what I said. The small change is that it applies to the present tense as well. It in FACT might help you to understand if you move your thinking one step further, and apply the statement to the future, since humans are used to thinking of the FUTURE as the realm of possibility. However there is no real discernable difference between past/future/present EXCEPT observer position... maybe that makes it clearer for you... "I considered that faulty thinking and explained why. If that's NOT so, then I misunderstood your brief sentence." I think we can probably say that I would have been more than surprised if more than one or two people had actually understood it. I'm just plain mean that way... An observer is merely (or grandly, if you prefer) the point of interaction for information transfer during the interaction of at least one instance of possibility. Which is, as I pointed out to Cirdan, usually more than one, since in most instances the observer also counts as an instance of possibility. (Self observation is the only single instance interaction I can concieve of- and bears at least tangentally on consiousness->). It (the observer) could be a conscious entity, however that is not absolutely necessary- for various reasons not the least of which the fuzziness of the word conciousness.... For instance, sending out an electron to "probe" an atom has a measurable effect. It would be odd to assume that the effect only appears magically when some lab worker checks a dial. The electron acts as an observer. It also measurably affects the observed object. And vice versa. It's just as correct to say that the electron was observed by the atom, and was measurably changed.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-20-2004, 01:33 AM | #1105 |
Elf Lord
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"As interesting as it can be for a discussion on hermeneutics (existentialist methodologies, etc) and Immanuel Kant, I don't think it's quite in line with 'evidence for creationism'."
That's because I haven't had time to point out the fact that "creationism" is flawed from the viewpoint that it posits that creation is over and done with. When in fact that's a rather strange viewpoint for a number of reasons. I'm refering to cosmilogical creation, though the idea that earth exists independant of the cosmos is also rather silly.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-20-2004, 01:36 AM | #1106 | |
Enting
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05-20-2004, 01:40 AM | #1107 |
Elf Lord
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See the post above about the hole in solophism...
Illusion is a form of existence, because it predicates an observer. However I was refering to an objective construct... and a non-metaphysical one at that...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-20-2004, 12:55 PM | #1108 |
Quasi Evil
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Perhaps but in a perfect illusion the observer would always be a complete unknown wouldnt it.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-20-2004, 03:50 PM | #1109 |
Elf Lord
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Nooo....
an illusion would have no impact on anything but the interpretation of the perception. The perception itself would be fundamentally the same- possibility detected by observer=perception (or collapse of wave function) Illusion is a higher function than basic reality, because interpretation is going on, which implies some kind of basic cognitive function, which is a subjective construction. possibility>observer>interpretation>universe construct Why are you guys are all pointing at the other end of the elephant?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-20-2004, 10:25 PM | #1110 |
Quasi Evil
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probably because its the end thats easiest to see. for the same reason ships have trouble with ice bergs.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-24-2004, 06:37 PM | #1111 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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btw, i thought we already covered my morals... they're relative and fairly 'good' most of the time for a non-believer
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-25-2004, 03:58 PM | #1112 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(a rather late response, but RL has been v. busy... end of school year stuff...)
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I can't recall anyone thinking a question like "And why should I accept your opinion?" means "Is this your own original thought?", but hey, not to worry - I didn't think it was an opinion that YOU, personally, had come up with, anyway. I figured it was something you were just repeating because you believed it to be true. And it looks like I was right, as you yourself confirmed. Quote:
As far as the rest of your rather condescending post, I will at this point cry foul. I will not allow "grandfathering" of assumptions and definitions (which is what you're doing) without making a loud objection. Your original sentence was "All god [supreme being, azathoth, what have you] ever created was possibility." This was a single, stand-alone sentence using common words, with no indication of the special definitions of those common words that you obviously had in mind at the time. I responded to it in good faith, and now you're trying to grandfather-in definitions and assumptions. Sorry, no go! To illustrate this, I'll make some statements using common words, and ask you to comment on them - 1. The 75 is better than the 74. 2. The frog is green. 3. Gain is important. 4. Let's go to the bar! Now since YOU know I'm using common words with dual meanings, you might be able to find the more obscure meanings of those words on the internet. But if I just made those statements in the same manner that YOU made YOUR initial statement, I can pretty much guarantee that you'd not have a clue as to their context. But I wouldn't do that, because I'm interested in discussion, not tricks. So if you'd really like to discuss this subject, why don't you start a new thread (since as BOP noted, it's really rather off-topic here) and lay out your context, definitions and assumptions right up front But I doubt that you'll do that, because your on-line persona doesn't exactly seem to like fairness (I don't know about you in RL, tho - I have a feeling you're a bit different in RL and probably even rather nice )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-25-2004 at 04:07 PM. |
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05-25-2004, 04:06 PM | #1113 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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05-25-2004, 04:08 PM | #1114 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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well, I always like to hope for the best ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-25-2004, 04:12 PM | #1115 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-25-2004, 04:16 PM | #1116 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I disagree with your claim (at least given the meanings that I would attach to your words). But perhaps your meaning of "creation" or "done" is different than mine. If you wish to continue, would you please define what you mean by "creation is over and done with"?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-25-2004, 04:30 PM | #1117 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And if you want to claim that everything could be an illusion, then go ahead but I won't join into that discussion. Personally, I'd rather spend time discussing things with the assumption that things ARE pretty much what they seem. It's just my personal preference. Altho I don't know that things AREN'T an illusion, for me, it's a waste of time to take up that assumption and try to discuss it. But that's just MHO and people that want to assume illusion may certainly do so - I won't try to stop them - but I won't join into the discussion, either.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-25-2004 at 04:32 PM. |
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05-25-2004, 04:31 PM | #1118 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Man! I'm getting some popcorn! Hold on now!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
05-25-2004, 04:33 PM | #1119 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Pass me the Milk Duds, wouldja? (but I have to leave in just a few minutes to help run the used clothing sale at school)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-25-2004, 05:50 PM | #1120 | |||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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This will help explain why size doesn't matter (in evolution). The variation in size within known species is not revelant to the difference in total genetic pattern. Gigantism is a phenomenon found in isolated populations. Also, not all whales are huge. The Beluga whale only grow to about 16 feet. Quote:
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Here's an example of what I would look for: I think to swing over to thinking that the evidence supports evolutionism more....[/clip] and if I saw some really good observable evidence of changes along the lines of definite, substantial and sustainable beneficial changes...[/quote][/b] Well, the HIV virus mutated to a new species and I think it has been very beneficial for the organism, judging by it's proliferation. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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