01-21-2005, 10:51 AM | #1101 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i assume that you agree with my general premise, more or less, that the "optimum reality" is a balance between what is good for the individual and what is good for society... please tell me if i am wrong so the next question is who, or what, is the judge i've said that it's judged at many levels, the individual, whether me or you makes a personal judgement... the society he/she lives in makes it's own judgements... this leads to compromise and sometimes even certain individuals having to suspend their personal judgements for the good of society... since a certain consensus among people in a given society has merits of it's own but most of all, the world changes... and as we become less isolated globally due to travel and communication... and life becomes less dictated by our environment due to advances in technology... things that seemed absolutely essential to the survival of the individual or society, may no longer be so important one specific... in the homosexual thread you made a lot of arguments concerning AIDs transmission... if, at some future point, society develops a cure for AIDs, or even better, a cure for just about every ailment we know... would that change your pov at all about something like homosexuality (and i am not talking about marriage... just the general practice) if you do not agree with this, i must ask, specifically... what is your alternative "optimum reality"?? it is very hard to discuss my pov when you tell me i am wrong on my view about "how the world works", but yet pose no alternative to my explanations for me to compare with
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01-21-2005, 11:38 AM | #1102 | |
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gotcha, but as i said to inked above... i am being asked questions about my beliefs and then told i am wrong... yet no clear explanation is given as to why i am wrong... i hear a lot of talk about "absolutes"... but no examples of them and no clue as to who is the judge of these "absolutes" if it is the individual along with society... we agree with one another and if it is "god", as some seem to imply... then how does one determine what "flavor" of god to follow??? and if the answer is, "it's up to the individual"... then you are really saying the exact same thing i am... just going about it in a more roundabout way
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01-21-2005, 11:54 AM | #1103 | ||||
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BTW, i think this is probably the best summation i've seen yet of the difference between the "believer" and the "agnostic" i've yet to see Quote:
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01-21-2005, 12:57 PM | #1104 |
Elf Lord
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brownjenkins,
I think I have made reference to the Tao as defined by CS Lewis in his THE ABOLITION OF MAN as an excellent discussion of the origins of morality and its VAST AGREEMENT across cultures as evidence of the source of morality in a suprahuman source. I know I have referenced the philosophical from Socrates in NICOMACHEAN ETHICS and his definition of morality as having a divine source. And I know I have been taken to task for espousing explicitly Christian moral values that were categorized as merely western values. So, what parts of the derivation of morality have I not made clear? I shall attempt to supply the deficiency (-ies) you perceive.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-21-2005, 01:38 PM | #1105 | |
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01-21-2005, 01:40 PM | #1106 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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One end of the extreme - there was a thread a while back called something like "what do you believe - and no arguments!" All it was was people saying "I believe such and such", and other people responded like "Oh, that's nice" and things like that, with no thought-provoking questions or challenges to perceived incongruities. The other end is "I believe such and such", and the responses are, "You're an idiot!", with no rational comments at all. I don't want EITHER of those here. Personally, I think it's GOOD to THINK (does anyone else here agree?) That's what I'm trying to provide a forum for. I know that I've been asked some GREAT questions about my worldview that have provoked hours of thought - and I think that's good! I would have NEVER thought of some of those questions myself, and I think it's great that people come in and ask totally no-holds-barred questions (the only condition being that it must be asked with kindness and consideration). I think if a person has a question on someone's worldview, then it should be asked, and the person should consider it! And I think a person should be willing to honestly examine questions, and if THEY think a valid objection has been demonstrated, then they need to adjust their worldview beliefs. This includes me! I get told I'm wrong all the time. It usually doesn't bother me, because I realize different people have different views - it only bothers me if it's in a mean way, or if they say I'm wrong because I haven't thought about things, or I"m wrong because I'm intentionally deceiving myself, etc. What I would like to assume here is that people have arrived at their beliefs sincerely and thoughtfully. And if that is the case, if their worldview is correct, then it SHOULD stand up to vigorous questioning, and maybe even the questioner will end up changing their opinion. And if it doesn't stand up in certain areas, then maybe the questionee (is that a word?) will change their opinion. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone. I'm only trying to get people to really think and evaluate their beliefs, and be open to change if someone can convince them of an error in their outlook. Personally, I see some logical errors in the atheistic outlook, and I'm trying to point them out (unfortunately I've had some poor health and have not been able to spend a lot of time here). And if brownie (the current hotseater) thinks about what I say, and then is not convinced, then he should NOT change his opinion in that area. However, if he thinks about it and decides I have a valid point, then I would hope he would think about it more and perhaps adjust his views. Anyway, that turned into a bit of a ramble, but I just didn't want you to feel like we were just taking potshots at your beliefs. The way I like to look at it is this : "Hey, we all love Tolkien! You guys are intelligent and nice - let's have a really vigorous debate on worldview beliefs, and challenge each other to deeper thought and consideration of questions that we may not have thought of before, and think together and laugh together and stand up for what we believe in while remaining Tolkien lovers and friends! We'll all gain greater understanding of ourselves, and of others, and that's a good thing."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-21-2005, 01:55 PM | #1107 |
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i with you rÃ*an... and, in addition, i have an incredibly thick skin... so even the less-than-considerate comments don't bother me... though i do prefer the nice ones... which is why i come here
and remember, i've never been an "atheist"... an "agnostic" is probably the closest, if you must put a label on it on the rest, i'm just asking for some examples of these "absolutes" you and inked seem to like to refer to... the ones that defy space and time, etc. and if your belief is, "no one can really know what these absolutes are, but they are there anyway"... that's cool too... just different from the way i see things
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-21-2005, 01:58 PM | #1108 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll have to leave it up to inky to provide those - I'm heading off for a nap!
I'll remember about the agnostic now - I guess I tend to think of you as an atheist because from what I can tell, for all intents and purposes, you're a practical atheist, if that makes sense.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-21-2005, 02:07 PM | #1109 | |
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an important distinction, i think
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01-21-2005, 06:26 PM | #1110 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's a question - since you believe that morals can and should change over time, adapting to new circumstances, etc., do you think it's a possibility that some day, people might read LOTR and consider its ending (the ring getting destroyed) a tragedy? "Oh, we were SO close to winning, and then that awful Frodo and Sam destroyed the ring! That was just so terrible! I mean, Sauron and Saruman and those orcs were just sincerely trying to fight for the society that they thought was right, and Gandalf kept interferring, and then Frodo just RUINED it! What a sad, tragic ending! Why, oh why did they have to destroy that wonderful ring? And Shelob - what a terrible thing that she got hurt and possibly killed! She was sincerely trying to do what she thought was best, and just keeping to her own little cave, and then these awful intruders come in and actually HURT her!" Do you think that's a possibility? Why or why not? If it came to pass, would you be bothered by it or think that those viewpoints are wrong somehow?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-21-2005 at 06:27 PM. |
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01-24-2005, 11:59 AM | #1111 | |
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that said, situations can change and as such, change what is "best for society"... if you look back in history... prior to a few hundred years ago democracy, except at a very small, local level was practically non-exisitant... you had kings or, even in the case of rome, a relatively small group of individuals in control... does this mean that back then authoritarian government was better than democracy? i'd say yes... without both the ability to communicate quickly over vast areas and the technological developments that allow the general populace a certain degree of free time... along with the education of that populace... the idea of a democracy in 500 AD on a national scale would be insane... it simply would not be possible to hold elections or make decisions in any accurate of timely fashion... back then, having a king (hopefully a benevolent one who did not abuse his powers) was far more "moral" a government than one ruled by all the people this has changed with present circumstances, and one would be hard-pressed these days to come up with a good justification for autocratic rule as a better method than democracy time and technology change what is good for society, or "moral"... imagine a future world where death itself was overcome via medical advancements... this might have a huge effect on how certain "morally wrong" acts are viewed in society
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01-24-2005, 12:25 PM | #1112 |
Elf Lord
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brownjenkins,
Have you read THE ABOLITION OF MAN by CS Lewis? The discussion of moral values, logic, and the derivation of moral codes between societies is quite good, as well as how they are derived, instilled, evaluated. The work is relatively short - about 50 pages, IIRC. Well worth the trouble of locating and reading. If you should be so inclined, the argument for "Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe" in MERE CHRISTIANITY is worth the time as well. The universal human appeal to "ought" as a starting point is well worked out. That said, I think that the vast similarities between cultures in morality in the concepts of "Do not do to others what you would not have done to you" (Buddha, IIRC) and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Jesus) represent two sides of the same coin. Though one may argue that the substitution of the positive in the latter is an advance over the former, as CS Lewis in fact does. This would be the point of closest contact in your societally driven morality model and my own absolute moral values.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-24-2005, 12:53 PM | #1113 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Or are you saying that there IS an absolute good - "balancing personal self-interest with society's interest"?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-24-2005, 02:38 PM | #1114 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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01-24-2005, 03:01 PM | #1115 | ||
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you've even said yourself that christianity varies sometimes in moral stance (i.e. birth control)... only "the basics" are absolute... i'm saying that "the basics" are "the basics" because they pretty much universally make sense... for at least the past hundred years or so... and on some issues more so... but i can't think of any "basic moral value" that could not conceivable change due to environmental changes... and if i go so far as to narrow the field down to the few that are most unlikely to change, it would certainly not include things like gay marriage or capital punishment
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-25-2005, 02:16 AM | #1116 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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?!?! IMO, that's just ... sad. I hope it's not true. If Sauron were to kill your precious wife and kids, your only thought would be, "This guy made an error - he thought he was invincible!" Come now, brownie, I can't believe that.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-25-2005, 11:37 AM | #1117 |
Elf Lord
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brownjenkins, do you really intend to elevate change to absolute status as you state 2 posts up? Because, if so, it is self-negating! "The only absolute is change. All things change.
There are no absolutes."
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-25-2005, 02:56 PM | #1118 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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am i wrong on this? i'm not saying it's the only thing he has ever done wrong... just that it is the "belief system" he based his life upon
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01-25-2005, 03:00 PM | #1119 | |
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better to say: all things change, there are no absolutes... but some things change so slowly that certain humans tend to perceive them as absolute... and stubbornly refuse to continue to re-evaluate them
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01-25-2005, 03:10 PM | #1120 |
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Jeebus Tom, ye still going? Mouthy bastard ainchya?
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