06-16-2003, 02:04 PM | #1081 | |
Elf Lord
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OF COURSE I read your post on quote-mining; I read everything you write- I just can't possibly keep up with the pace of reply! And no, I don't agree- in fact, I've seen this one so many times that it's a red rag to a bull. What Darwin has done in the first bit you quoted is, with a somewhat dramatical flourish, pose a rhetorical question, which he then proceeds to answer. Let's say, to quote a hypothetical situation, you were posting on Divine Justice, in response to a savage attack based on Numbers 31 You might say, "When we see the terrible events which occur here, we can hardly help but agree that there is no Divine Justice or Good . However, when we look at this in light of what we know about God, we can see how this is justified by etc. etc." If I quoted only your first sentence "Rian herself says: ..." you would quite rightly accuse me of distorting your meaning.
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06-16-2003, 02:13 PM | #1082 | |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ibid. In fact, few scientists, if any, are still looking for fossil links between the major invertebrate groups. The reason is simple. All the groups appear as separate, distince, diversified lies in the deepest fossil-rich deposits. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THis is a BFL if I ever saw one. See my much earlier post regarding hexacorals. Endless examples can be posted regarding the existence of transitional species, especially among invertebrates. Phylogenic Classification (def) Classification of organisms based on genetic connections between other species. This is the system currently in use to describe species. What exactly is this "group" the author refers to? Quote:
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06-16-2003, 02:25 PM | #1083 | |
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Rian, either you don't know what quote mining is or I don't. There were many examples of this in the sample pages that I read.
I'm too lazy to get the quote, but there is one exactly like this: They have someone labelled as an "evolutionist" saying something like ".....evolution does not work..." Its not EXACTLY like that, so don't go yelling at me because I did not quote exactly. This is one of the first quotes. And many others like it. They have evolutions saying things supporting creation - which makes no sense. All these quotes were taken out of context! I wonder what the guy said after and before the quote. Why would an EVOLUTIONIST be saying how evolution does not work? it uses quotes from evolutionists out of context to say "see - even evolutionists don't beleive in evolution" Practically all the quotes there are an example of this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't quote mining basically taking quotes out of context to look like they mean something other than the original person intended? All the quotes I read in the first 6 or so sample pages were examples of this (maybe 90% is the lowest number). Quote:
You got all upset when I said offhandly that "rian thinks that evolution should not be taught in school" You went on about that for several days. It was not form any quote, I'm sorry that I assumed that you said this...... It turned out that you want evolution taught in public schools BUT ALSO CREATION TAUGHT IN SCIENCE CLASSES, so you might as well have said that first one (because it is just as unreasonable - if not more so) It is just my opinion that that book is NOT A VERY CREDIBLE SOURCE. I am not debating that this guy has a PhD. Does that mean that everyone with a PhD deserves it? I dunno....just this guy seems very biased against evolution and is definitely twisting things in his favor.........im no expert on biology (yet ) and i have only read the first 6 or 7pages of this book. I am not alone in my opinion on that on this board btw.
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06-16-2003, 02:38 PM | #1084 | |
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Now I'm beginning to doubt myself. I have to get my old biology book on this again..... It was in there. *runs to attic* RÃ*an, my old biology book says the stretching-induced long necks was definately LAMARCK and not Darwin. And yes, it's still taught in biology. At least it was in my class.
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06-16-2003, 03:10 PM | #1085 | |
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I read the pages off of Amazon and that book is laughable. Obviously it is geared to people who already believe in it and don't want to look any further. He repeatedly says that so and so is an evolutionist and then provides a quote from the person where they say evolution is impossible. How is the person an evolutionist if they don't think it's possible? As for intelligent design - you can NOT prove it. You can NOT show evidence of intelligent design. Evolution shows how something might have occurred. Intelligent design tries to show that something was behind it - guiding it. How can you prove that - what evidence is there to support that? As for atheist scientists versus religious ones - ahteist scientists don't get blinded by their religion (since they don't have one) like many deeply religious scientists. The most that an atheist scientist (as well as any scientist) runs into is being hooked on a theory (and I don't mean evolution). There was an article in Discover magazine about a scientist wonders if Einstein was completely right about the speed of light being constant. In the beginning of the big bang there was so much heat that protons and hence light - moved much faster. As things cooled - the protons and light slowed to what today is the current speed of light. He was ridiculed for this theory - but it seems to solve a lot of problems that scientists couldn''t explain and his theory is getting more credence.
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06-16-2003, 03:20 PM | #1086 |
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I just read that article. I found it intertesting, and certainly plausible. Einstein's theories are nice because they provide "the constant"...but seeing as the universe is so diverse, "a constant" might be asking for too much! It just underlines (IMO) the necessity to keep and open mind! Did anyone enjoy the show on Discover channel last night, "Walking with Cavemen"? It started with Lucy, and hit on quite a few different hominid species, telling their story, how long they survived and if they had any relation to homo Sapiens. We enjoyed it!
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06-16-2003, 03:39 PM | #1087 |
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I missed it - I wanted to see it too. It'll be on again this week probably. I'll have to look at the times. I have Walking with Dinosaurs on DVD. That has like 4 DVDs to it - so it's pretty long.
Did you see the show where they showed what types of animals things could evolve in in the future? It was very cool - although it was of course just simple speculation.
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06-16-2003, 04:18 PM | #1088 |
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I read the first seven pages of What is Creation Science? and it even contains some of the examples of quote-mining dicredited in the links GM provided. Are we to believe that Stephen Gould and Mark Ridley devoted their lives to researching and publishing something they thought was wrong? And one of the "evolutionists" quoted is a history professor heavily into the theological speaking circuit.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 06-16-2003 at 04:38 PM. |
06-16-2003, 04:23 PM | #1089 |
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exactly cirdan... thats JD and Cirdan backing up that there was quote mining there.... carry on.
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06-16-2003, 04:31 PM | #1090 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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06-16-2003, 04:41 PM | #1091 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Here's the quote again for reference: Quote:
Quote:
(1) IF gradations would even happen; (2) IF they happen that they would be USEFUL; (3) IF the eye ever varies at all; (4) IF the variations are inherited; (5) IF the variations are useful under changing conditions of life. Now I do NOT mean to be disrespectful here, but one could also say "if by magic the eye changed" - that's an 'if', too. Also one could say "if God made the eye change" - same idea. My point is that he DID NOT SOLVE the problem, he merely posed a hypothetical solution for it. And my point still remains that the only point that Morris/Parker were showing by the quote was - that Darwin himself saw difficulties with things such as the eye!. THAT is the context in which they used the quote, and I can't see anything wrong with it, and I would not call it quote-mining. Can you agree with this now? For me, quote-mining is a serious charge, because it's a charge against someone's integrity (or a charge of sloppiness, as you pointed out, but I don't see sloppiness charges being made here). As far as your Numbers 31 example, I'm using logical reasoning, not scientific evidence. I would call it quote-mining if you distorted things by saying I CONCLUDED etc., but not if you say that I saw difficulties. But you wouldn't do that, would you?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-16-2003, 04:50 PM | #1092 | ||
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Quote:
Now the Morris/Parker book says: Quote:
Let's try to look into this some more, because I think that your biology book is RIGHT saying that the idea was Lamarck's, but I think they are omitting ON PURPOSE that Darwin thought the idea was correct. And that is a serious omission, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-16-2003, 04:56 PM | #1093 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Sheeana : 06-16-2003 at 05:09 PM. |
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06-16-2003, 05:01 PM | #1094 |
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waiting for bop to say all that.
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06-16-2003, 05:07 PM | #1095 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*sigh*
Did I say that the eye quote was NEVER used in illegitimate quote-mining? No, I'm saying that in the specific example that I posted from the Morris/Parker book, the quote was NOT used in an illegitimate quote-mining way. Could you guys please get off quote-mining in general and look at the specific case I'm talking about? The CONTEXT - I'll say it again - the CONTEXT of the section was PROBLEMS that Darwin saw. The title of the chapter in O. of Sp. was even called "Difficulties with the Theory"!!! Now Darwin posed a hypothetical solution to the PROBLEM that he saw, but until the hypothetical solution is SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN, which it is NOT, the PROBLEM still remains. Morris/Parker agree with Darwin that systems like the eye are a PROBLEM that needs a solution, but they differ on the solutions proposed. People, you don't need to worry about admitting I'm right every once in awhile (of course, only if you think I am). That will NOT turn you into a creationist! Don't worry! I've consistently said that I think evolutionism is a scientific theory formed by intelligent scientists. Does that make me an evolutionist? Why has no one but Cirdan even commented on the first bit of evidence that I presented?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-16-2003, 05:08 PM | #1096 | |
Lord of the Pants
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The basic premise of evolution is to have the best possible fitness. Evolution IS environment. Phenotype = Genotype + Environment. I don't really see how this quote is following Larmarck. That quote is not stating that organisms evolved in their lifetimes. |
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06-16-2003, 05:09 PM | #1097 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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From:GM's Link
Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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06-16-2003, 05:10 PM | #1098 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-16-2003, 05:12 PM | #1099 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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FromWhat is Creation Science?
Quote:
So, not only is he quote mining, it's from another creationist author. The previous post clearly shows that the original author's intent and point of discussion was completely distorted by the editing of the quote. He clearly seeks to impune the "dating" techniques geology. The quotes are edited to support his claim, which the source material clearly does not. How do you not see this as an obvious attempt at deception?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 06-16-2003 at 05:25 PM. |
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06-16-2003, 05:15 PM | #1100 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - saying "if god made the eye change" is not the same - there is absolutely no way of proving that or studying that. Science is always posing questions - that is the nature of science - throwing in a supernatural being into the equation - is not science. Quote:
Darwin was merely stating that ON THE SURFACE it would seem to be impossible - but if someone looked at the gradation through the species - you would see how they built up on each other. This is the key part the book leaves out in order to make it's point... Quote:
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