Why you believe what you believe I

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Rian

He went to the very gates of Hell to save anyone that wanted to be saved. Remember, Heaven is an actual place where God reigns and there is NO sin. It's not some giant vending machine place where you can press buttons and out comes what you think you want. If people love their sin more than they love God, they will choose to NOT be saved, because there can be no sin in Heaven. As the Bible says, NO ONE will have an excuse - we all have ENOUGH info to make an informed decision.

maybe this has been discussed before, here or elsewhere, but I am curios what you think sin are. is everything that is conemd by the Bible sin? if you do anything that the Bible says you can't, do then have sin, and are you then locked away from heaven? even if you do things that weighs up for that one thing?(maybe it is not your turn to be hotseat, I chek this post only now and then...)

[Nurvingiel]

IIRC RÃ*an did go into that a while back. Hope you put a little "refpost" tag in it RÃ*.

This is a good question. I am very confused to this day, and I'll make sure to look at RÃ*'s link when she posts it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvs

Your husband is a football player isn't he...

No, he played soccer - but my son was the quarterback on his middle-school team (altho they lost every game )

Interesting story about soccer ... *rabbit trail warning* ... one of our kids accidentally fell from a beam over a concrete floor, and was heading head-first for the concrete. If I was next to him, I would have grabbed for him with my hands ... and missed But my hubby was right there, and his totally automatic reflex was to catch him with his foot, soccer-style, and he was saved from grave injury. Thank God for his many years playing soccer!

(EDIT - no, do not call child protection services! This was our son who is missing his legs - a normal kid would have fallen on his feet with no problem - and it was a freak accident. It should never have happened! but hey, ya got kids, ya got the occasional freak accident!)

I don't quite see the connection, but maybe I'm missing your point. If I tell a lie, why would God be offended?

I'm using the word in the more old-fashioned sense - I should probably choose another word. I mean it in the sense of a proper indignation at seeing a moral wrong. Oh wait, maybe you mean why would God be offended if the lie didn't involve Him? (IOW, if you lied to me, not to God - why would He be concerned?) It's in the same way as the government is "offended" when a crime is committed, even if the crime isn't technically against the state (like embezzling state money) - when there's a murder (say Joe Blow murdered Sally Schmo), and the person is on trial, in court it's called "The State of California against Joe Blow", even tho Joe Blow didn't murder the State of California! Both God and the state are rightful authorities with laws that they deem are for the good of the populace, and both have authority to carry out sentences. Does that make sense?

Every offense/sin is against God. There's a story in the Old Testament about a guy named Joseph. He was the master of Potiphar's household, and apparently quite good-looking. Potiphar's wife tried to get him to commit adultery with her. Joseph refused, on the ground that his master had trusted him and been very good to him, and he also said, "How can I do this great evil, and sin against God?" It's the same concept as how a murder is an "offense" to the murder victim & family, etc., as well as an "offense" to the state.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

(It is not just that their beliefs are "different than mine" Rian, it is that they are based on things that are only true in stories.)

There are true stories, too, Liz. I tell my kids the story of how I met their dad. How in the world can you know for sure if what you call "stories" are true or not? You can't prove God doesn't exist any more than I can prove He does exist. We both go on observations and analysis of available information, and form conclusions. The difference seems to be that I grant that atheists have formed their conclusions with thought and hold them sincerely and may very well be right, while you don't seem to do that with Christians and believers of other religions. Why? How can you be so utterly sure you're right? And btw, isn't that "intolerant"?

I am always amazed when they base their "reason for living" on this fantasy world.

Again, it's only your opinion that it's "fantasy". Can you admit that you might be wrong about it? If not, why not? I can totally understand that you think you're right (after all, I think I'm right, too), but can you admit you might be wrong? (like I admit I might be wrong)

Why they do it, I certainly couldn't say..... surely it must makes them feel good, probably for a variety of reasons...depending on the individual.

I hold my beliefs because I think, after lots of thought and analysis and research, that they're more likely to be true than any other set of beliefs I've seen. That's why. I imagine you hold YOUR beliefs for the same reasons, right?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i can base my standards on being a decent buddhist ie following basic moral teachings

I think everyone bases their standards on their own particular worldview (sorry, Liz ) beliefs.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by QueenAnnesLace

What's his BIO ? You told the other two, so I was just wondering.

I'm sorry, I don't understand ...

Q: Did he repent to God for his sins??? I must say as hanus as it must sound. God forgives all when someone truely is sorry.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was trying to show a understandable moral reaction to a heinous crime.

Isn't it up to God to judge those who do wrong ? And isn't beating someone up or as you said beating the stuffin' out of him, also wrong?

Yes, it's up to God, and yes, it would have been wrong to beat the stuffin' out of him - wrong, but understandable. And frankly, I'd be more worried about someone that didn't care about what the guy did than with someone that had the urge to hit him. I'm NOT saying it's good to be a vigilante!!!!!! I'm just illustrating moral reactions.

To end all of that I am just going to say I am a firm believer in God, MY God and Rian don't take me wrong. But in all honesty no one on Earth has any right to judge another. And I even mean as for judging someones religion. We believe what we believe because of what we have been taught, believe from where we are from and for whatever reason we do and/or lack of it all together. Practicing ones religion is to each thier own.

I think it is entirely appropriate to say that you think an element in someone's belief system is wrong. People do it all the time with the fundamentalist Christian beliefs on homosexuality!

And as just a one day moderater that was something that should've been said in the religious thread. And even myself replying to yours went off topic. But keep up the good work Rian. Just know when and where to say it.

This IS a "religious" thread, O moderator of the day! And I'm the thread starter, so I can say that

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Baby-K

And if I'm wrong and this is all there is, then hey, I'll be dead so I can't be disappointed....the other way around however will be quite a downer.

hee hee!

Nice to see you back, Baby-K

Hope you put a little "refpost" tag in it RÃ*.

You found me out! I got tired of wasting a lot of time trying to find posts that I had spent a lot of time on and people tended to ask me about, so I added that little tag. On my last one, I made it in lemon chiffon, but it shows up when you quote me!

Brownie's on the hot seat, pytt, but he's been busy at work and unable to get to the many excellent pending questions, so I went ahead and answered, since he didn't seem to mind. I'll try to find a post on that subject for you.

Brownie - hurry back!!!!!

[Lizra]

Rian...I'm sorry it bugs you so much that I think I'm right...but I most certainly do. BTW....I tolerate many Christians.... If they (or anyone for that matter) happen to go on too much about their fantasy religion (meaning the aspects that nobody has ever actually experienced ...except in "visions") I don't take them very seriously though.

I "could" be wrong...but I'd be VERY surprised if I was. That's my OPINION.....take it or leave it, It doesn't really matter, but I'm very comfortable with it.

[Rían]

It doesn't bug me that you think you're right, Liz!!! I would certainly hope you think you're right!!! Why would you believe something if you think it's wrong?

What bothered me is that you didn't seem to think there's a possibility that you're wrong (but you just said you did, so good!) And also the way you worded things about "fantasy" and "stories", I took it as you think people are deliberately deceiving themselves if they didn't follow your beliefs. You just didn't seem to believe that people could sincerely hold beliefs that are different from yours. But maybe I just really misinterpreted you.

Have you ever thought of attempting a Tolkien-based picture? I think you could do a really nice Lothlorien one ...

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Rian...I'm sorry it bugs you so much that I think I'm right...but I most certainly do. BTW....I tolerate many Christians.... If they (or anyone for that matter) happen to go on too much about their fantasy religion (meaning the aspects that nobody has ever actually experienced ...except in "visions") I don't take them very seriously though.

I "could" be wrong...but I'd be VERY surprised if I was. That's my OPINION.....take it or leave it, It doesn't really matter, but I'm very comfortable with it.

O domesticated Swing Babe,

That's as close to "maybe I'm wrong" as you can get without toeing the line?
How long have you been married? Seems a pretty practiced answer to me .

You won't mind if I say I hope your ARE surprised and that it is a PLEASANT one, will you? And didn't someone say somewhere sometime that anytime we were comfortable, we should be worried, as a protest against "comfortable Christians"? Or does my ageing grey matter betray me yet again?

[Nurvingiel]

Your grey matter is probably in pretty good shape Inked.

But really, what's wrong with being comfortable? Open question to all.

Is Brownie still on the hotseat?

[Janny]

Being comfortable you lose the sense of what is important and what isn't, as nothing is being tested.

[Lizra]

I turn 49 this month guys...I've got the "what I believe" thing pretty well figured out. Being comfortable is good.

[jellyfishannah]

Originally Posted by Lizra

I turn 49 this month guys...I've got the "what I believe" thing pretty well figured out. Being comfortable is good.

Happy Birthday, soon!!!

I haven't read all of this thread but it's a great idea, Rian!

Originally Posted by Lizra

Rian...I'm sorry it bugs you so much that I think I'm right...but I most certainly do. BTW....I tolerate many Christians.... If they (or anyone for that matter) happen to go on too much about their fantasy religion (meaning the aspects that nobody has ever actually experienced ...except in "visions") I don't take them very seriously though.

I "could" be wrong...but I'd be VERY surprised if I was. That's my OPINION.....take it or leave it, It doesn't really matter, but I'm very comfortable with it.

*applause*I like people who are decided. It's really annoying when people choose to believe what they want to believe, don't know why, and don't care if it stands against reason.

From where you stand, even if you don't believe it, Christianity does not actually stand against reason. Well, I don't actually mean to say Christianity. I mean, that there is a God and he created the world and became a man and all that. That doesn't stand against reason. At least, it's not logically incomprehensible. If there is an All-mighty, All-powerful loving God, then all the rest is pretty simple. People try to make it complicated after that but it's not, really.

I really don't understand people (self-proclaimed Christians) who believe that there is a God (in the Christian sense) but don't believe two-thirds of what the Bible says! They pick out the parts that say "Love your neighbor as yourself" and the rest is myth. So many other religions have teachings like "love your neighbor". Great teachings. They could be just as happy without bothering with the title "Christian". Christianity is not a Philosophy or a lesson in Ethics like so many people treat it.

Sorry about the rambling.

[Rían]

Hi JFHannah! Nice post - I hope you can stick around and ask brownie some good, thoughtful questions, then take a turn in the hot seat yourself if you'd like to I totally agree with you that Christianity is not a philosophy or a lesson in ethics - it's a truth claim, and it needs to be evaluated as such.

Yes, brownie is still on the seat - apparently work has picked up and he can't quite get here. Hopefully he'll be back soon (or backson, as Christopher Robin says) and answer those good pending questions!

Since I got a panicked PM from someone already , I added this to my post that described the accident : (EDIT - no, do not call child protection services! This was our son who is missing his legs - a normal kid would have fallen on his feet with no problem - and it was a freak accident. It should never have happened! but hey, ya got kids, ya got the occasional freak accident!)

[Rían]

I'll join the general musing on the pros and cons of "comfortable" while we're waiting for brownie ... will try to muse tonight and post tomorrow. Interesting question, Nurv!

[inked]

Well, Lizra,

You just ignored my #1090, didn't ya?! That's what's wrong with you young whippersnappers today! Ya got no respect for your elders!!! So, before you get rheumatic and everything, specially afore you get too comfortable, answer an older man his question or two, eh?

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by inked

O domesticated Swing Babe,

That's as close to "maybe I'm wrong" as you can get without toeing the line?
How long have you been married? Seems a pretty practiced answer to me .

You won't mind if I say I hope your ARE surprised and that it is a PLEASANT one, will you? And didn't someone say somewhere sometime that anytime we were comfortable, we should be worried, as a protest against "comfortable Christians"? Or does my ageing grey matter betray me yet again?

Answer this? I've been married 22 years. I'm not following you though...
I don't think I'm wrong, I just told Rian she "could" be right, because I (of course) am making an educated guess. ( there is no actual REAL information about what happens when we die because everybody who has died seems to have lost their ability to communicate.... ) While I do consider other people's feelings to "keep the peace"...I am a very firm believer in honesty is the best policy. Thats why I am not at all uncomfortable with saying I don't believe any of the fairy tale stuff many religions seem to be made of. False peace of mind is worthless...IMO. Now, when religions talk about how to be a good person...to yourself and others...this is good but "rewards" come from within...no "pearly gates"!

I don't mind you saying you hope I'm pleasantly surprised Inked...I think that's sweet... And (I believe I already said this) .....being comfortable is a good thing im my book....I don't seek turmoil...been there, done that, don't see any particularly positive value in it.

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

IIRC RÃ*an did go into that a while back. Hope you put a little "refpost" tag in it RÃ*.

This is a good question. I am very confused to this day, and I'll make sure to look at RÃ*'s link when she posts it.

Ok. Do you know the number? It looks like Rian don't have time, or maybe she don't saw it.

Comfortable is good. Until the moment lif isn't comfortably anymore. then the persons who have been uncomfortable have am advantage. they know how to handle it. if you are comfortable all of your life, the day you are not anymore, will be a great shock for you.
I prefer to be comfortable. I don't see the point in being uncomfortable. Like askeths(correct writing?). I don't think they have it very comfortable, and I don't clearly see the point with it. I know they do it to come closer to God, and releas them self from the turmoils of this world, but I think that could be done when you are comfotable.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hello BJ

From one left-leaning (in relation to Dubya anyway) Mooter to another, I'd like to ask you about how you see your political beliefs fitting in with the world at large.

I get the impression that you believe that one of the functions of government should be ensuring the welfare of its citizens. However, in each of our countries, we see an ongoing erosion of collective welfare, a widening of the gaps between rich and poor and widespread cynicism and apathy towards political means of social change.

In general, the Right are at the steering wheel and have their feet flat to the floor.

Given that the resounding theme is away from such collectivism (though some may disagree with that premise), where do you see progress coming from?

unanswered question #1:

to put it shortly... i think the only answer is time... looking at the world today in the relative short-term, 20+ years that is... one could say that we are going backwards as far as a "social safety net goes"... but in reality, i think society is much like the stock market... it makes advances, then has setbacks... but the overall trend is upwards if you stand back far enough

while, in the US for example, we may get administrations in power that want to adjust, or even curtail the way social welfare programs work... when one truely looks at what is inacted, as opposed to what is spoken about, the changes tend to be relatively minor... i don't see us ever going back to a time when healthcare and subsistance-level pay were practically unknown to workers... the people would not stand for it... and while these conditions do exist in places like china and india today... as time goes by, the same things will happen there that happened here... workers will finally say, "that is enough" and they will demand a bigger piece of the pie

whether we like it or not, today's world is a global economy... and eventually the demands of the common worker will balance out the desires of the capitalist, much like they did in the US back in the 1920s... differences in income will always exist... but even those at the very top will realize that it is to their advantage that none of the world's population is in a situation so destitute that their only alternative for change is violence