09-01-2005, 04:33 PM | #1061 |
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brownie - the term is called "apparent age". If one believes it is reasonable that God could create Adam and Eve as adults, instead of starting out as babies (or egg and sperm, for that matter), then one can see how the rest of the universe was also created with "apparent age" - trees came into being full-grown instead of seeds, and far-away galaxies had their light show up at earth.
As far as the empirical evidence that might lead one to think creation is a reasonable thing to consider, I'd say the complexity of the universe, and the fine-tuning of the universe, and the fact that we see varying levels of intelligence around us (so why limit it to humans being on the top?) Mainly, I think the incredible complexity and balance of the universe we can see around us. And as far as the Biblical account, I'd say mainly things like how genetics work - that getting half from each parent tends to cancel out mutations, that changes in species are limited to existing characteristics becoming more or less prevalent depending upon the environment, etc. Now - I'd like to turn your question to me around and ask YOU - what empirical evidence led to people thinking that macroevolution occurred?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-01-2005, 04:37 PM | #1062 |
Elf Lord
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Hi Rian.
Because I can, and do. Then lots of others do the same. Then you know what? We get together and discuss and argue and organise ourselves and before you know it people are saying that these views of right and wrong didn't come from us but from God. Yes, I probably didn't understand what you mean by the two types of logic. You can have a logical if P then Q type statement; you can have a more everyday use of the word to mean that something "makes sense" in a practical setting. I don't think we should get into the relative/absolute thing, or else well have to merge about half a dozen other threads as well |
09-01-2005, 04:46 PM | #1063 | |
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example of first - "all fathers are men; Gaffer is a father; therefore Gaffer is a man." If the first two statements are true, then the third is logically true. Do you agree? example of second - "I think each person should decide for themselves what is right or wrong to do because there is no higher authority like God, and I also think it's wrong for anyone to murder and eat kids." If the first is true, then the second is NOT logically true (like it was in the above example - i.e., it's not a valid logical deduction from the first statement); it's only "logically" true in the sense of "it's logical to think this because most people I've observed think this way." Do you agree? Thanks for hanging in there with me on this; to me, it's extremely important to discuss these points and to point out the important difference between the two types of logic, because ... well, we'll get to that once we can agree on my examples (or yours, if you want to come up with some)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-01-2005, 04:50 PM | #1064 |
Elf Lord
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Yeeeessss, I would agree with that
* ducks, expecting ambush * |
09-01-2005, 04:55 PM | #1065 | ||||
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09-01-2005, 04:59 PM | #1066 | |
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09-01-2005, 05:02 PM | #1067 | |
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So would you agree that it's perfectly logical (in the first sense) for a person to conclude that: 1. if there is no God or other higher-type being, then he, himself, is the highest authority on what behavior is right or wrong for him? and/or 2. if people came here through the process of chance, then he, himself, is the highest authority on what behavior is right or wrong for him?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-01-2005, 05:04 PM | #1068 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-01-2005, 05:08 PM | #1069 | ||
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(can't get to the rest now - got 6 kids over here, and they want to go swimming - gtg!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-01-2005, 05:26 PM | #1070 | |||
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09-01-2005, 06:38 PM | #1071 | |
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*says to herself, "I will keep my temper, I will keep my temper, even when reading unfair writeups!!"* vestigal organs would certainly be an indication of microevolution, which is observeable today and compatible with both creationism, ID and evolution. You've given me things before that IYO support evolution, but I don't think they were really thought of before Darwin's theory was formulated, were they, except for vestigal organs? (sorry, am rushed!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-02-2005, 04:32 AM | #1072 | |
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So, in order to apply these statements to this situation we cannot get away from consideration of the terms: the second, "pragmatic" sense of logic. So, we need to define what we mean by "God" or "higher type being", "he himself", "authority" and "right or wrong". Nitpicking aside, we can also explore these statements by looking for falsifying information. As you know, people have a tendency to look for information which confirms their beliefs. Popper, Russell et al emphasised the importance in science of looking for falsifying information. Dahmer got busted; therefore he is not the highest authority on what is right and wrong for him. QED. There could be endless other examples. But in the formal sense, clearly we can define the terms in ways that would falsify the statement. In order to make it unfalsifiable, IMO, you would have to define "higher authority" and "God" as the same thing. This would be like saying: "if there is no God or other higher-type being, then he, himself, is the God or other higher-type being on what behavior is right or wrong for him?" Which would be a contradiction in terms. I would contend that 2 is evidently false in the light of the evidence. That's not to say that belief in God may be associated, and may cause, people to behave in a more moral way. However, I also think that a strong case could be made for absolutism causing more immoral behaviour than relativism: Absolutist 1) "I'm right" Absolutist 2) "No, I'm right" Absolutist 1) "Come here and say that" Absolutist 2) "You want a piece of me?" * smack stab blam nuke * |
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09-02-2005, 10:59 AM | #1073 | ||
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see here once again, you must look at all the evidence, not just pick and choose the stuff you prefer
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09-02-2005, 11:01 AM | #1074 | |
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evolution is scientifically testable (obviously, since i find the tests as being mostly positive and you find them as being mostly negative)
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09-02-2005, 01:10 PM | #1075 | |||||||
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Or we can just define those terms for you and me, for our discussion, and not get into "well, maybe everyone in the world doesn't agree with us." I would imagine both you and I could agree on the meaning of these terms. Do you really think you and I need to define them, or shall we agree that we both know what they mean? Sometimes, it seems to me that I'm the only one willing to openly and honestly and logically consider concepts, even if they go against what I currently think is right. For example, I considered brownie's comment on vestigal organs and said yes, I could see how that supported the concept of microevolution taking place. You guys are so defensive - what are you defensive about? What happened to being willing to abandon biases and truly consider an idea? Quote:
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Yet I still prefer "I'm right" to "nothing is right" ... because if the latter is true, then of course nothing is wrong ... Do you think nothing is wrong, Gaffer? Do you really?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-02-2005, 01:19 PM | #1076 | |
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I don't think evolution is true, yet I will grant that some reasonable people could look at vestigal organs (most of which have now been proved to NOT be vestigal, but rather to have very important functions) and think that living beings have changed over time, and make a HUGE extrapolation to say that maybe they've changed from particle to people. I'm not afraid of that theory being considered; I"m willing to grant that some people might think it is reasonable and want to look into it further. Yet I only seem to get defensiveness from you, and I look at other evolutionists and see absolute hysteria - WHY, WHY is there so much emotion tied up in THIS PARTICULAR area, as opposed to non-evolutionary topics? To me, it looks like desperate measures from desperate people.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-02-2005, 01:22 PM | #1077 | ||
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but I expect my choice of theories to be shown true after I'm gone from this earth!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-02-2005, 01:57 PM | #1078 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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btw, to be brutally honest (which I think everyone should be; self-deception is a terrible thing), natural selection is going on quite demonstrably in New Orleans.
Do you evolutionists object? If so, what are your logical reasons for objecting? If it's just that you feel bad because you evolved with a tendency to help others, and it's not like there's any real absolute truth that it's wrong for all time to come up to a woman holding her baby and then kill the bothersome baby and rape the woman, then why are you sending your aid and your condolences over here? Why? Since you're now enlightened and you realize that your compassion is merely a by-product of natural selection and doesn't really mean anything, then I hope you'll get back into your senses and keep your money for yourselves. Shouldn't you rejoice that your theory is being supported? (I'm playing the devil's advocate here - I'm truly horrified at what is taking place over there yet I think we need to THINK about it! If we can wring some good out of it by making people think more about things, then good! That Katrina lady sure wrung some good out of it - I think it warmed many hearts here to hear what she had done. Yet her "natural" choice should have been to take the money... is she a fool to have done what she did?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-02-2005, 02:16 PM | #1079 |
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What kind of nonsense...
What does whats going on in New Orleans have ANYTHING to do with creationism exactly? If anything it clearly shows that we ARE animals at base. When pushed into desperate situations we tend to do horrible things to survive. When law and order breaks down and more opportunity for getting away with things avails itself, people WILL take advantage. Human nature. Instinct. Documented over and over by simply turning on CNN and watching whats going on down there. And when people see other people suffering and in such a horrible state it is also our instinct to feel anguished and want to help. We are a social species. This is perfectly normal and expected. We survive by supporting each other. Its to OUR benefit. It fits in perfectly. To say that theres no point to helping them is an absurd statement. We EVOLVED to help each other and we EVOLVED to kill each other. And heres a perfect example of both right in front of you. Now personally Im a little leary of using the catastrophe in New Orleans right now to attack evolution and promote creationism or christianity. Some people still have missing friends and relatives and may find this offensive or hurtful.
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09-02-2005, 02:38 PM | #1080 | ||
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science says "how could x,y,z" have come about naturally... or, to put it in your terms: is it possible for what we see today to have come about naturally once you hit the point of "the creator did it", you are ceasing to be scientific... you can call it a theory, but it is not a scientific one saying the earth is 6,000 years old can be a scientific theory... saying that a creator "created" it 6,000 years ago is not (but you can still believe it) saying the earth is billions of years old can be a scientific theory... saying that a creator "created" it billions years ago is not (but you can still believe it) i'm sorry if you take it as defensive, i really don't mean it that way Quote:
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