05-02-2002, 09:31 PM | #1061 | ||||
The Insufferable
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Humans very rarely behave in the manner which we feel we should. But the fact that we feel that way, that we know otherwise, suggests that we're more than a result of our environments. Quote:
And so when we find that our brains work in such a way that we can be induced to feel 'the supernatural', is it not more likely that there is something behind it? There are a number of examples we could cite of people taking something legitimate the wrong way and ruining it, but I think we'd be hard pressed to say that there are things which humans desire which don't exist. Even athiests have a tendency to endorse the greater good, and things like that. And so it seems perfectly reasonable to me to presume that there's something behind it after all. Quote:
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My personal viewpoint is that there's a bunch of stuff that's been tossed in over the years, from the priesthood to dancing is bad (I know a girl who'se parents believe that) to whatever. Heck, most of my problems are things come from trying to be some sort of psuedo-intellectual. But I try to base everything I can on the new testament, which as lelondul pointed out happens to be the best preserved document on record. And I'm often surprised to find there are a number of others who do the same. I hope you can understand my thinking that the most important thing is the basics, and that everything should be looked at critically. In any case, I really do hope that the only things peculiar to 'my brand of cristendom' are the habit of metaphor and my love for tolkien. In short, things that don't make much of a difference. Incidentally, I have good friends who've come out of a number of different religious and social backgrounds, and we very rarely dissent or compete in what we believe. It seems to me that's because we're trying to find out the right way to do things and follow it. I certainly agree with you guys on a number of flaws in the modern church(es). But, having accepted the basics of christianity as likely true, I try and get as good a picture of reality as I can. I'll let you know if I make any stellar progress.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 05-02-2002 at 09:33 PM. |
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05-03-2002, 05:25 PM | #1062 | ||
the Shrike
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Another Monty Python song...
Quote:
Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-03-2002 at 05:27 PM. |
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05-03-2002, 05:54 PM | #1063 | |
the Shrike
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And also...
Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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05-06-2002, 01:41 PM | #1064 | ||
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wayfarer
Well there's christianity, and there's christianity. Or something. ]: ) Something I've found is that the title is applied more liberally than it really fits. The church of christ scientist, for example, or the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, are greatly different from anything that you can get from the bible. [quote] The title as applied by who? Not to mention that a great many of the sects, even the more well known ones, are greatly different than anything you are going to get from the bible. They all have a tendancy to ignore certain parts while elevating others. I can make a case from even the new testiemant, that it's OK to "smite" certain people. It's been done before. I can also make a case that pacifism is the only "sacred" path. You can pretty much get anything that you want to from the bible. Quote:
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Sure you can believe whatever you want to. But your either going to have to critically examine how you arrived at such a belief, the information you used to arrive at the belief, and even, the implications of holding the belief. Otherwise it's pretty much worthless in any real spiritual sense. One of the things I do grant to serious athiests, not anti-theists, but athiests, is that they have been through this process. So have many theists. However, the majority of theists are merely blindly accepting what they have been told (along with a small sample of athiests, and a lot of anti-theists). I find the concept of accepting something blinidly difficult to reconcile with any concept of spirituality. It leads to all sorts of problem behavior, because it breaks down the ability to judge for one's self what is right and what is wrong, or healthy and unhealthy.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-06-2002, 02:25 PM | #1065 |
Hoplite Nomad
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wayfarer will you will you please fish or cut bait
you have not show any proof of a SOLEY christian god simply can you or can't you or at least why you think a CHRISTIAN god more plausable than others
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-06-2002, 02:39 PM | #1066 |
The Original Corruptor
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Anduril's happy Bible review [part 4]
According to Genesis [8:13], the earth was dry on the first day of the first month. However, the next verse states that the earth was dried only on the 20th day of the second month.
One wonders what the carnivorous creatures ate after leaving the ark. Surely this would lead to the extinction of certain species? What did these animals eat while in the ark, anyway? Where did they excrete their bodily waste. How was the stench combatted (I know - by that tiny window...) How exactly did marsupials find their way to Austraila, anway? [8:21] ...and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake... But in Malachi [4:6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. So, in Genesis he will never again curse the earth, but according to Malachi he might. According to [9:24], Noah woke up and "...knew what his younger son had done unto him." Firstly, Noah had three sons, not two, so "younger" doesn't make much sense. In [5:32], [6:10] and [7:13] Noah's sons are mentioned in the same order, which presumably is that of age: Shem, Ham, and Japeth. Perhaps the "younger" of Noah's sons is Ham. But according to [9:22], Ham only saw his naked father and told his brothers - he did nothing else. His actions resulted in his brothers performing an act that warranted praise from their father. Ham did not do anything to Noah. Perhaps "youngest" is meant by "younger"? In that case, Japeth would be the youngest. But what did he do? He performed a act with Shem, his oldest brother, which warranted praise from Noah. He didn't do anything wrong, as we can see from Noah's blessing. So why does Noah curse Ham's son in verse 25? Ham did nothing wrong, and Canaan had nothing to do with the whole event. Here we have an example of the child receiving the punishment for the father's sin (whatever "sin" it was...). Besides this, according to [6:9] and [7:1], Noah was just and perfect. So does the bible advocate the punishment of the child for the father's wrongdoing? The answer is no. This is made evident in the following verses: Deuteronomy [24:16] The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Jeremiah [31:30] But every one shall die for his own iniquity... Ezekiel [18:20] ...The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Wait. The answer is yes: Exodus [20:5] and Deuteronomy [5:9] ...I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus [34:7] ...Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation. Numbers [14:18] ...Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Deuteronomy [28:18] Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body... 2 Samuel [12:14] ...the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 2 Sameul [21:6-9] Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the Lord .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord. 1 Kings [2:33] Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever... 1 Kings [21:29] Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house. 2 Kings [5:27] The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever... Isaiah [14:21] Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers... Jeremiah [16:10-11] ...Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ...Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord... Jeremiah [32:18] Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them... So, if we ask the question: Does the Bible advocate the punishment of children for the sins of the parents? The answer is no, and the answer is yes. Besides that, an affirmative answer does not sit well when advocating an omnibeveloent god, or even a just god. In 1 Timothy [1:4], as well as in Titus [3:9] we are told to avoid genealogies. The entire chapter 10 of Genesis is a genealogy. [11:5] And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Where exactly did God come down from? Heaven? That means heaven is above us, somewhere in the earth's atmosphere (although probably in a dimension innaccesible to us...). Why couldn't God see the city and tower from where he was? A sign of non-omnipotence. Why did he have to see it at all? Didn't he know what was happening? A sign of non-omniscience. Also, very untimeless-like. According to verse 6, seeing as all of the earth's inhabitants spoke one language, that meant that they could do anything they imagined. In other words, they had the attribute of omnipotence. However, this omnipotence was not as powerful as God's omnipotence, because they were unable to abate God's scattering. According to verse 7, God decides to "...confound their language...", probably because he did not want them to be omnipotent (as he was). This doesn't bode well for the argument of free will, because God purposefully scatters these people in the next verse, thereby changing the course of their future actions. Last edited by Andúril : 05-06-2002 at 02:58 PM. |
05-06-2002, 02:44 PM | #1067 |
The Original Corruptor
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Come on theists!! Where's your enthusiasm? Refute me. Debunk me.
And to non-theists: I have up until know not asked the question.... ....are you enjoying Anduril's Happy Bible Review? I sure hope so! Bye bye now. |
05-06-2002, 04:49 PM | #1068 |
Elf Lord
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I am neither a theist, nor a non-theist, nor an a-theist, nor even an un-theist.
So you haven't asked me.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-06-2002, 08:11 PM | #1069 | |||||||
The Insufferable
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Anduril, I'd be happy to play... but yould you mind doing me a couple very small favours?
1) Start another thread. 2) Slow down and listen when you're answered. Thatnk you. BoP... I really liked that first poem. I've always been a fan of the creepy, crawly, nasty, scary, and generally unlikeable creatures. I find them fascinating. Quote:
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1)God created the heavens and the earth. 2)Man is fallen and in need of serious help 3)Jesus Christ was the son of God. He was both fully human and fully divine. 4)Christ provided paid for us all through his death and ressurection. 5)Accepting him as your savior is the only way. Now, there are those who would argue with my phrasing (I do disdain theobabble) or who would say that there's more to it (the virgin birth, baptism, etc) but those are the basics of christianity, and a substantial majority of those who call themselves christians hold them. Quote:
Let it never be said that I want anybody to become a Christian 'just because'. Or accept it without really looking a it. The only thing I find more irritating than that is people who decide something is false and then go trying to prove it. So I ask that you look at it seriously, but with an open mind. Quote:
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However... When one looks at some of the claims made by the authors, it does give one pause- the authors claim to have an eyewitness account of the things that they tell. But the really shocking claim comes from some of the corrospondance. The author actually tells the intended recipient of his letter what they have seen. Now, considering that the earliest manuscripts found have been less than 100* years after the events, and christianity had been very active for long before that, aren't there grounds for surmising that there would have been eyewitnesses left? And if these writings are that erroneous, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there were plenty of people who would have known it? And if there were, wouldn't we expect them to say something? *"We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80" -Dr. William Foxwell Albright If there were hundreds and possibly thousands of eyewitnesses who could have nipped christianity in the bud. Why didn't they? I think it's because the text of the new testament was and is substantially correct. Quote:
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I suppose it's sort of pointless to quote your last two paragraphs just to agree, but I do. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one christian who I look up to who hasn't had to actually look at what it means before deciding that it's correct.
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05-06-2002, 09:52 PM | #1070 | |
The Insufferable
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Quote:
Also, in order to do this I must make a lot of comparisons between christianity and other religions- especially when it comes to the state of man and etc. Ok, that aside, I shall begin at the beginning: --"In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth" I think that's simple and pretty straightforward. God, who is all powerful, and who has always existed, created everything else. Compare this to other creation stories, for example: Greek Norse Hindu Egyptian Japanese All of these suffer from certain problems- We have gods spontaneously appearing out of nothing, the earth and sky being formed from eggshells and the body parts of giants. We have pantheons springing from the armpit, thigh, mouth, breath, and all parts of giants. At every point we come up against difficulties. On the other hand, the hebrew, christian, and muslim story is profound in it's simplicity. God simply creates matter, space, and time out of energy. He doesn't create the sun and moon out of infants or body parts, he just thinks them up and sticks them there. He doesn't make the plants and animals from blood or sweat, he just causes them to exist. --The state of man: Most religions take a rather humanistic look at man. Islam, for example, teaches a man needs to do X and not do Y. Buddhism and hinduism teach that a man can gradually obtain something like perfection through effort. A number of the other, legend-oriented religions don't even bothet, sticking instead to stories about men. Not so christianity. The bible makes very clear what we all knew anyway- that man is fallen and unable to make it on his own. If mankind can better itself, why don't they? Christianity makes it clear- we can't do it ourselves, and we need help. --Directives for living Religious thought almost invariably sets up two lists: one of things to do and another of things not to do. Islam, as I have mentioned, does this. And yes, christians have a tendancy to do this as well. But when asked what the most important thing to do, Christ himself replied 'Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". This is admittedly much harder than not eating beef or covering your face, but it certainly makes more sense, doesn't it? --The Criteria Most world religions, in addition to having lists of rules, say something along the lines of 'if you do this you'll get into heaven'. Christianity, well, yes, it does do something along those lines. But the big difference is that rather than asking you to make it on your own, it says that the issue has been completely taken care of. All you have to do is ask. And once you're certain to get into heaven, then god helps you out with living correctly here on earth. But you never have to do it alone. That's a few reasons I think christianity works better than anything else. I'll try and come back with more.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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05-06-2002, 11:18 PM | #1071 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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So Wayfarer--where did God come from? That is not explained in the creation story.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
05-06-2002, 11:22 PM | #1072 | |
the Shrike
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Go EG!
... Quote:
Besides which, the Egyptian story about how the gods were born by er... slapping around some monkeys.... sounds much more interesting!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-06-2002 at 11:37 PM. |
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05-06-2002, 11:30 PM | #1073 | |
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See, in the "flawed" mythos/creation stories of the other cultures you posted about, Wayfarer, there was usually an explanation of where God/the Gods came from, but in the Christian/Hebrew/Muslim creation story, it simply says that God has always existed, and I have to agree with BoP's statement (and the evil look. . .) on that. . .
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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05-06-2002, 11:46 PM | #1074 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Long time no post... Had an "anti-theist moment today. A young man selling magazines "to work through school". The topics were the nature of the universe, and life...., and JESUS!!! He even wanted me to take the pamphlet for a "donation of a few dollars". Satan should be so devious and brazen.
I'm not boing to catch up on older posts, other that to comment on Anduril's Happy Bible Review. Be careful, you may become a theologician. I started the same sort of effort on my own after looking up a few posted references. Then my head became filled with so many contradictions and re-writing of the same events over and over, I got a headache. There is some nice poetry here and there, but waaaay too much smiting and maditory killing. I then moved on to the new testament, hoping it would be a bit more polished. The dialog is an improvement and christ is charismatic, but the same old cerebellar storm occured. I think the bible was meant as a reference for preists to cull foder for the flock. Reading in it's whole takes away the "suspension of disbelief" that makes the message palitable. Have fun... I will try to read them but may not respond to all. BoP: Nice follow with the Lennon. I paraphrased "God" for my sig cause it seemed a better match to my view, even if it didn't rhyme. The song selection reminds me of Firesign Theatre. They had an album called "Lennon and Marx" (john and groucho Quote:
1) God created the heavens (whatever you may interpret those to be) and the earth (the dirt or the planet???). The only objective solution to this problem, while maintaining vigorous objectivity, is to go with the "god as nature" argument (finite causality is a human need for certainty). This is what most christians accept today as pragmatic. It's a moot point because the biblical story is written as fairy tale, even if it were true. The dirt or planet reference is actually a serious one. The people that wrote the bible were probably commiting to parchment an ancient verbal myth that all cultures develop to explain the "what's the point?" itch in our cranky cerebellums. These people didn't have a way to express the concept of zero or infinity. The earth can be easily seen as a translation of the ground from which food is grown and raised. 2) Man is in serious need of help. The net effect of christianity on the troubled little cerebellum is break even. Great moral principles and art versus concentration camps and endless wars. Yes, I know that what evil is done is man made, but a religion that requires complete commitment to the exclusion of the non-believers breeds separatism and group hate. 3) Christ was human and divine. Nice paradox isn't it. That is all tidied up after the fact with the virgin birth and resurrection myths. 4) The concept of of christ suffering for our sins is a bit weak since we all suffer for our sins; and suffer for no misdeed at all. The idea of salvation broadened the audience, and gave people hope that they could be saved despite sin. This may have the tendency to allow repentant murderers into heaven while the best of the billions of non-saved souls go to hell. This is a double edged sword cutting both ways and muddying the water for people who are thinking about thier existance. 5) The only way... another paradox. As a hebrew, jesus held all the tenets of hebrew law, why would gods laws change to exclude the very people he spent so much time on? The muslims accept the god of abraham but see jesus as a prophet. Same god, different rules ( sorry guys, still infidels). * Hey AE, how is "The Satanic Verses" coming? Is it worth reading?* Anyway, I tried, and of course, failed (BH) to be objective, but i did my best. I hope your happy with christianity as a social group if you're only interested in the basics. I'm going to keep seeking a nice set of "truths" to live by that don't require me to stop thinking, doubting, and questioning, posting, sleeping.....
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-06-2002, 11:59 PM | #1075 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
The anti-theist thread is like ice cream. Too much can make you sick, but after a week your ready for more! IT'S ALIVE, IT'S ALIVE!!!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-07-2002, 12:04 AM | #1076 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-07-2002, 12:28 AM | #1077 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Quote:
I am greatly tempted to bring in literary (yes, fictional) references again, but I will resist that...I guess nobody has read American Gods. Too bad, there's a great theory behind it. Okay, cannot resist any longer...anyone read The Golden Compass?
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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05-07-2002, 12:41 AM | #1078 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-07-2002, 12:47 AM | #1079 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Quote:
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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05-07-2002, 05:25 AM | #1080 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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.
Quote:
you seem to have missed the above in the upanishad's in the begining there was the great self or from your link The most celebrated of these is the hymn that contains the earliest known reference to varna. Creation is the result of the sacrifice of Purusha (Man), the primeval being, who is all that exists, including “whatever has been and whatever is to be.” Well that is rather poetic so i guess its like christainity. you want it literal or poetic. Greek Creation Myth In the beginning there was an empty darkness Japanese Creation Myth Long ago all the elements were mixed together with one germ of life Norse Creation Myth At the beginning of time, nothing existed. The earth, the gentle oceans lapping up against its shores, man and animal had not yet been created. Only a great yawning abyss was present in the void of nothingness at least the very begining makes some sense the other examples you gave are quite sub-standard for you basically you are begging the question by assuming that the bible is divine and using it as you "proof" can you use external "proof" of a christian god
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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