06-15-2003, 03:59 AM | #1061 | |
Elf Lord
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BTW, Paley's "watch on the beach" depends on the analogy that living things and artifacts share certain characteristics that differentiate them from the surrounding environment which has been shaped by merely physical, purposeless processes. Therefore, the argument is actually saying that while Life may be the product of a Creator, the Universe at large isn't.
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06-15-2003, 08:56 AM | #1062 | |||
Elf Lord
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AnswersinGenesis also has a Statement of Faith, which includes: Quote:
I promise to examine the evidence presented, to draw conclusions only from this evidence, and to be prepared to change my conclusions if the evidence warrants. The last phrase is the kicker, of course- all scientific belief is held conditionally, and subject to revision. Anyone taking one of the Creationist Pledges would be affirming that there are some facts about the Universe that are not held conditionally- IOW, non-scientific.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-15-2003, 09:32 AM | #1063 | |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RÃ*an
*continuing back* GrayMouser - well worth replying to, since he is kind, intelligent and thoughtful. Not Always!!! Quote:
Some OECs believe in many extinctions and new creations of life. Some "Progressive Creation" believers, including some IDers, believe that God has intervened at various points to cause cchanges in organisms. But , yes, it would be clearer if it read creationists believe "in the Beginning, and possibly at later points, supernatural intervention was necessary."
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-15-2003 at 09:37 AM. |
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06-15-2003, 02:45 PM | #1064 | |
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My point of bringing god into this scenario is precisely that creation isn't limited to god so that even showing intelligent design, if possible, doesn't neccessitate god as creator. My specific point regarding the arrowhead on Mars is that without any other supporting evidence (arrowheads lodged in animal bones, hearths, flakes of waste rock from the making of the arrowhead, any sign of life capable of producing the arrowhead, etc) then I would have to leave open the possibility of a natural process. (Have you seen the history channel commercial where the couple are arguing over a rock as to whether it is an artifact? - "yes, it is." : "no, it isn't") All one could say without supporting facts is that it looks like an arrowhead. The "logical inference" is just a subjective guess, in this scenario.
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06-15-2003, 07:01 PM | #1065 | |
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Their methods are scientific, regardless of the conclusions they draw. Considering the vastness of space, the time and distances involved, i don't think one could be very optimistic, at our current level of technology, to have any success. Sagan's quotes are very prosed, and not applicable to hard science. It rasies the question again. How can one discern "natural" and "artificial" in the larger sense, if they are both design? Then the obverse conclusion becomes apparent that nature is readily "reconizable" and different from designed systems. They may have similarities and human design may imitate some natural process but they are different. Of course that arguement is as logically weak as "it is easily recognizable as design" because it is based on subjective and non-scientific assumptions. This sort of arguement has popular appeal as "common sense" but is not very useful in any methodical analysis.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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06-15-2003, 07:59 PM | #1066 |
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http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=297
A quick easy read on the Intelliegent Design/ Fine Tuning argument.
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06-15-2003, 11:51 PM | #1067 | |
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In Texas there is a limestone bed on the Paluxy River which (say creationists) has human footprints with the footprints of dinosaurs. These footprints were misinterpreted, and are not human footprints coexisting with dinosaur footprints. No such track anywhere had withstood serious investigation. I may be wrong, but I think Morris mentions this. More often it seems Morris twists the facts. But I'll wait till you post some arguments to respond to that.
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06-15-2003, 11:59 PM | #1068 |
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Cass - thats what it seemed like from the first several pages of the book :P My opinion was that he was an idiot (see post on previous page )
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06-16-2003, 12:26 AM | #1069 |
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Well, I wouldn't call him an idiot (not outloud anyway ), but I cannot see how he wouldn't manipulate the facts, given he thinks the Bible is inerrant. The Bible says the Earth doesn't move, but it does! What would Morris say to that?
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06-16-2003, 01:51 AM | #1070 | ||
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I'll find out more about that section if you want, but I really think what I explained should clear it up. See you guys tomorrow!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-16-2003 at 01:53 AM. |
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06-16-2003, 02:17 AM | #1071 | |
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06-16-2003, 12:13 PM | #1072 | ||
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*working back thru the thread*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-16-2003, 12:20 PM | #1073 |
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i agree atheist scientist can be as blinded by their beliefs as religious ones, it depends on the individual scientist. no one group is free of scientists that are influenced by their beliefs, also their conclusions of data is often based upon their beliefs, if one sees a strange skeleton one will say its evolution, because thats natural to him to think, the other will say thats poor diets and old age, because thats what he sees, is either free from his beliefe no its all about purging your beliefs form each incident. but then again its what you believe in that forms your life beliefs
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06-16-2003, 12:23 PM | #1074 |
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*some quick responses, or I'll never get anywhere!*
Cass - did you see my response to the "earth moving" thing? Also, re the footprints - the only ref. I found to footprints were ones in Laetoli in east Africa. They are discussed in National Geographic April 1979 and Science News Feb 9, 1980. Thanks for the info on Carl Sagan - I didn't know that. And I would agree that he is voicing his views via Ellie. 5 bucks, eh? Good deal! and re "I see what you're getting at, but I don't think it's valid in regards to evolution." -- Why not? Cirdan - I disgree that the assumption of design is "based on subjective and non-scientific assumptions", if you're saying totally based on. In the arrowhead example, scientific knowledge of rock characteristics and the way erosion works enable you to make a more definite judgement of "created". and "My point of bringing god into this scenario is precisely that creation isn't limited to god so that even showing intelligent design, if possible, doesn't neccessitate god as creator". I agree; my point is that there is intelligence behind it in the scenario, not necessarily God. and again, I was NOT saying "conclude" about the arrowhead.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-16-2003 at 12:28 PM. |
06-16-2003, 12:26 PM | #1075 |
Elf Lord
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Let's get down to the red meat of the evidence - the vultures are circling, and getting hungry!!
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
06-16-2003, 12:30 PM | #1076 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*why do I feel like I'm looking down the barrels of about 20 shotguns?*
OK, but first, GrayMouser, since you're online, did you read my post on quote-mining, and would you agree that Morris is NOT quote-mining in this example? I will await your answer, then start with evidence (believe it or not, I was JUST getting to your posts, and there's something else there I want to cover while you're responding to this)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-16-2003 at 12:52 PM. |
06-16-2003, 12:41 PM | #1077 | |
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Sorry I'm taking so long to get to evidence, but really now - why even bother if the consensus will be either (1) - ANYTHING I present will immediately, w/o any examination, be declared "unscientific" if it's supporting creationism, or (2) ANYTHING I present will immediately, w/o any examination, be declared false because creationist scientists believe in God. THOSE are the two things I'm trying to deal with before presenting evidence, so I waste as little of my time as possible.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-17-2003 at 02:12 AM. |
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06-16-2003, 12:52 PM | #1078 | ||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-16-2003 at 01:47 PM. |
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06-16-2003, 01:10 PM | #1079 | |
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*flaps wings slowly* *eyes thread hungrily with her beady little eyes*
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06-16-2003, 01:46 PM | #1080 | ||
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Well, no answer from GrayMouser yet, but I'll start.
First, a couple of quick notes on ideas that were around when Darwin was forming his theory. I think it's important to realize these 2 ideas, now scientifically disproven, were around at that time. Pangenes When it came to the origin of new traits (on which natural selection would then operate), Darwin wrote that it was "from use and disuse, from the direct and indirect actions of the environment" that new traits arose. (I don't have a ref. for this quote, so I assume it's from O. of Sp.) So acc'd to Darwin, the giraffes basically got their long necks because a drought dried things up and the animals started stretching their necks to get to the green leaves on the tops of trees. OK so far, but Darwin thought that the longer neck (from stretching) could be passed on to the next generation. He thought that at reproduction each organ produced "pangenes" that would collect in the blood and flow to the reproductive organs. So a more-stretched-out neck would make more neck "pangenes" Is this still in school textbooks today? I think it should be. It's very interesting and informative information about WHY Darwin proposed certain parts of this theory. Now I'm not contrasting creationism to this original Darwinism, but to neo-Darwinism, which is that new traits come about by mutations. Spontaneous Generation Also, as far as the famous primordial soup mix from which life supposedly came, back in Darwin's time it was widely thought that life could naturally develop from non-life. The classic example was that people thought that maggots would spontaneously develop from decaying meat. But right around the same time that Darwin published O. of Sp., Francesco Redi showed that maggots would NOT develop from meat that was kept away from flies, and Pasteur showed that air contains microorganisms that can multiply in water, giving the illusion of spontaneous generation. So it was very understandable that Darwin thought that life could come from non-life, as it was a common thought in his time. So let's dive in! (But please keep your manners ) (I'll be using mostly the Morris/Parker book, What is Creation Science, for reference, because I think it's well-written for laypeople with scientific backgrounds, like many of us here. I don't know of any Mooters that have PhDs in any of the sciences.) Fossil Evidence for Creationism I think there's several areas that can be covered first - according to the creationist model, you should find variation among type, not changes from type to type. Also, extinction is evident, just as it is today. Also, the same types of classification should work for complete-enough fossil remains as well as today's specimens. Also, constructs should be tied to use, not evolutionary development. The simplest bunch of plants and animals to leave lots of fossil remains is in the age/zone of Trilobites, or the Cambrian system. And what is found in this zone? A wide variety of things, including very complex invertebrates, nautiloids, and highly complex trilobites. Already in one of the earliest layers, acc'd to evolutionists, there exist very complex creations. Another interesting thing is that, as Parker puts it, Quote:
The point is that you can search back for how these sea creatures originated, and you find them originating from .... the same type! And this is why punctuated equilibrium came about (I guess it would now be called "modified neo-Darwinism) - because the expected transitional forms were NOT found in the fossil record. As Parker notes, Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-17-2003 at 02:15 AM. |
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