05-10-2004, 06:19 PM | #1061 | ||
the Shrike
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I'm curious: what were your feelings on these 'archaic' hominid finds again? Do you feel that God created them separately? What? (sorry, can't quite remember if you've mentioned hominids or not.) Quote:
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05-10-2004, 09:49 PM | #1062 | |||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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When one goes to the Smithsonian Museum the displays of roman historical objects are not far from the displays of homid fossils, early tools, etc. Creationism has as many of these pieces of evidence as the Donald Duck theory. You sought to equivocate based on "observable" but you turn your back on the overwhelming physical evidence. Have you found a way to fix that whole increasing complexity, geologic age, no human fossils in all but the top most sedimentary layers? Were the humans better swimmers than the marine dinosaurs? The physical evidence is "observable" and you are feel to try to give some credible alternative to ToE to explain it, but so far you have not done so, and yes, I've read ALL your posts. Quote:
I can show it takes millions of years for mountains to erode and that it can't happen overnight. I can prove that the chalk cliffs of Dover, made up of calcareous plankton skeletal material, only accumulate to such depths over extremely long periods of time - by observable processes to boot! He's dead wrong. Some processes require long periods of time. Quote:
.or that a man can be made from clay... Just say you think it is impossible. The analogy proves and explains nothing. "It like a brick singing the National Anthem" Ummm... great, so were are the facts. Quote:
It can be scientifically proven that a man can't survive in the belly of a whale. "How do I taste, Moby? Do I taste good?" BoP's post is quite to the point without being as verbose as mine. Just show me some facts.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 05-10-2004 at 09:50 PM. |
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05-11-2004, 10:28 AM | #1063 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Oh Rian! I think it's silly to call Cirdan "afraid"! Come on....I have not seen anything in his posts that would resemble "fear". IMO, he has shown incredible patience as he politely repeats evolution's winning, (in this debate ) logical, backed by observable scientific data facts, over and over.... when the creation faction repeats the same tired arguments, about every 6th page in this thread. What have evolution people to fear anyway? Not dying, that's for sure! ...There's just NO WAY an evil devil/satan man is going to burn me and poke me with his pointy pitchfork (along with several billion others) in a mysterious invisible void place for eternity! No, not "afraid" of that...if that's what you mean? I think the creation people are the ones with the fear...that when they die...that will be it! No "reward".
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05-11-2004, 12:25 PM | #1064 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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1. I, personally, have thought about it a lot, and I think creationism is better supported by the existing evidence. 2. If new evidence shows up that supports evolutionism more, IMO, then I will say that I think the evidence supports evolution more than creationism, because I am a truthful person. 3. My faith in God does not depend upon which theory has more evidence, it depends upon other things; therefore I have no vested interest in creationism and no fear of evolutionism. Please listen to what I say; it's true. Quote:
That's my honest opinion, BoP, looking at the data without preconceived notions. I hope you can believe me. Call me stupid, call me deceived, call me wrong; but I hope at least you call me honest. Another quote from Chesterton that I think is appropos (and please read this with an open mind, and NOT with an eye to immediately pick it apart. One should always approach something with an open mind, IMO, THEN with an open mind and no preconceived notions see if you find any flaws) : Quote:
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I don't mean to disparage science or history at ALL - just to point out that things in the past are non-observable. I think it is VERY reasonable to assume that Julius, and not Donald Duck, was an emperor of Rome; that is comparatively recent and there are written documents from people that OBSERVED it. My objection is when people try to go back millions and billions of years and say with such certainty that macroevolution happened, when NO ONE has observed it, and the evidence is not conclusive at all, unless one has a pre-conceived bias towards macroevolution, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-11-2004 at 12:35 PM. |
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05-11-2004, 12:50 PM | #1065 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I assume it's that you must agree with them, and you have a right to your opinion (altho you're wrong ) But IMO, Cirdan is unscientifically motivated, at some level, by fear that evolution may not be true; why else would he take issue with a statement that I made that merely said that just because someone says something CAN happen doesn't mean it DID happen? IMO, if an evolutionist said that, he'd agree; since I said it, he felt that he had to disagree at some level. And to me, that points to a motivation of fear that his belief in evolutionism may not be true. That's my opinion, and I feel that I needed to say that; my motive to say anything is love and respect for people (except when I lose my temper sometimes - I'm not perfect by any means!) BTW, here's some words that Cirdan used about creationists/creationism: blind faith, political movement, terrible flaws, armchair fantasy, ignorance, intellectually bankrupt, twisted, outright fabrications, distortions, misconceptions, fears. These may be found in posts 320344, 282521, 275238, and 268206. Why didn't you come to my defense when these words were used against my beliefs, Lizra? Probably because you thought them to be true. Again, that's your right. And it's my right to think that Cirdan is motivated by fear in this case. And it's pretty hypocritical, IMO, for anyone to deny me my opinion, when it's stated respectfully, and to let others bring charges of fear against me without any rebuke. Now your denial of my charge that Cirdan was afraid was a good one - you didn't believe it based on the evidence you saw. But it mystifies me why you wouldn't spring to my defense in the same way - MY defense, not creationists in general - when claims of fear were brought against me. How do you see fear in me, when I've said over and over that if I come to think that evolutionism is more supported by the evidence, that it has no effect on my faith in God? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-11-2004, 01:10 PM | #1066 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-11-2004, 01:58 PM | #1067 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-11-2004, 02:01 PM | #1068 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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The reason I said it was silly to call Cirdan "afraid" is because I have never read anything in any of his posts that sounds "fearful". Period. All this "you think that I think that you think" stuff is making me dizzy. I don't read fear in Cirdan's posts.
A post where someone said that you were afraid doesn't stick out in my mind!? It certainly could be there, and I would always come to your defense in general, as a friend, but in the context of this *debate*, I usually don't come to your defense because I don't believe in god! Personally...actually....I would feel a teensy, weensy, nagging little bit hypocritaical saying you have every right to believe whatever you want (and of course that IS true... ) because I truely think that believing in the Christian god is ....searching for polite word... ...not smart. Not meaning to belittle you...just being honest.
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05-11-2004, 05:29 PM | #1069 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well I guess we just disagree on the fearful part, so 'nuff said there
And I appreciate your honesty and your search for a "polite" word , because that shows compassion and care for me. And you have come to my defense in other areas, which I appreciate. I think perhaps the Christians you've come across in "real life" unfortunately gave you the impression that it's not smart to believe in God - it sounds like they haven't thought things thru, but have instead taken up beliefs that they haven't thought thru. I'd just caution you to not be prejudiced against ALL Christians because of them. Personally, I've found atheists/agnostics to be stupid, smart, thoughtful, lights-on-but-no-one-home, logical, illogical, and everything in between,and I think Christians are the same way. By the world's standards, not to brag, but I'm quite smart (I was invited to join MENSA, that society for people with high IQs - I didn't apply, I just got a letter saying that I qualified and please join! I declined.) Also I think I've thought things thru well. Maybe you disagree with both these points but as I said, I'd rather be thought stupid than dishonest, and I'm glad to be your friend.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-11-2004, 09:01 PM | #1070 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Ah, Rian...you sweet thing.... you make me out to be noble...and I'm not! I only say "not smart" because I honestly can't understand how someone could consider all things, and still allow themselves to go the god way. That just doesn't seem really and truely *smart * to me. Of course, being smart isn't all it's cracked up to be but I can't deny what I percieve as reality.
(You know...those really aren't just ape skulls! The early hominid skulls are noticebly different, otherwise scientists would just come out and say that they were various versions of ape skulls. There is more going on there than common apes, and homo sapiens.) I've thought carefully, and considered all things too, and I went through a period where I really wanted/needed to believe things wern't just what they seemed, (meaning.... there was some cool purpose and meaning to this life of mine) but after a brief period of highness (believing in god did make me feel high...it was giddy, and exciting) I had to laugh at myself for my foolishness. And so, and so.....
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05-12-2004, 01:34 AM | #1071 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 01:37 AM | #1072 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Not that I think you're perfect or anything .... I imagine you have at least one or two faults but I think you're quite nice.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 01:35 PM | #1073 |
Elf Lord
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On the other hand....
It's quite possible to posit an ongoing creation myth, one that is in progess currently. I always founf the idea that "creation" was over and done with sort of absurd actually... Oh by the way. I'm going to eat you all for dinner.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-12-2004, 02:46 PM | #1074 |
the Shrike
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Whoah, whoah, the kraken rises from the deep.
Hi Blackheart. Are you still playing at being a nefarious sod?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
05-12-2004, 03:08 PM | #1075 |
Elf Lord
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Sodder.
Nefarious Sodder. Not a Sod. Those are from planet Sodom, I think. I'm from that other planet. Gomorra. The one with the odd shaped towers. We've been guiding your evolution here on earth for quite some time now. Trying to breed the ultimate snack food you know. I must say, you look delicious my dear....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-12-2004, 03:44 PM | #1076 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll repeat my short answer: God's giving people free-will logically necessitated the possibility of hell, altho not the necessity of anyone's being in there. What do you think of that? Do you see what I'm saying? So yes, if it's there, God would have had to create it, I suppose, altho I'm sure with a great deal of grief, given what I know of His great heart. But if you look at it in terms of a practical reality, as opposed to the goofy idea of God being some type of genii that we control and make Him give us various silly paradises, it makes a lot of sense. The Bible shows God as loving, holy, passionate, righteous, compassionate, merciful, just, and fair, just to name a few off the top of my head. And as I've said before, no one, including God, wants compelled love - so God created us with free will. And we have the ultimate compliment to our free will from God - He who made us and loves us and woos us and died for us ... will not force us to love Him. And any place apart from God is Hell.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 06:45 PM | #1077 |
Elf Lord
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All god [supreme being, azathoth, what have you] ever created was possibility.
Everything else is yang. You did it to yourselves...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-12-2004, 08:25 PM | #1078 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Now I understand the "afraid" comment. I thought you were accusing me of loving the ToE so much I was personal for me which I found humorous. Now I find That you think I fear that the alternative is eternal damnation of some sort. I think this explains why we offend one another, intentionally or not. Despite you protestations to the contrary, you view the ToE as disproval of god, and reflexively, that creationism (which seems to amount to nothing more than an attempted refutation of ToE) affirms the god centered universe. I do not operate under the same paradigm.
I view the existence of god and the proof of the ToE to be comepletely independent of one another. I've never ruled out the possible existence of god. I've never ruled out the possibility that the ToE could be proven wrong. No one has provided sufficient evidence that there is a more logical conclusion, however. So when I disparage the ToC you seem to take it as an offense to your religious beliefs, which is not my intent. It is merely my less than sensitive evaluation of the unscientific nature of it. I have no fear of hell because I don't hold those beliefs about the nature of god. The bible, to me, is a kind of spiritual primer which helps initiates experience the metaphysical concept. I actually attend church occasionally, as a member, becasue there some very effective techniques in the ritual for experiencing an altered consciousness. For me the bible, apart for it's historcal content, is the literary expression of spiritual minds. The "word of God" as told to.... if you will. I don't think it is to be interpeted literally. There are things I find more laughable than creation science in its current form. Satanic cults are just hilarious; believing in God, and then doing the opposite just to be contrary. These two are similar in that they take part of an existing disipline, science in the case of creationism, and turn it on its head as a form of personal protest against that very discipline. Every step away from the inspired source of creationism, the literal interpretation of the genesis story and noah's tale, than makes it more compatible with the physical evidence (e.g. Young Earth Creationist to Old Earth Creationist) belies a step toward the rational and away from the dogmatic. A scenario in which god creates the world via magic powers to look very old and as if species changed "type" through time so that a cabal of the best minds in the world can conspire to prove god doesn't exist seems a bit paranoid. I stand by my position that god may well exist and that has nothing to do with ToE, which describes a mechanism for change. Lizra, if you made it this far then thanks for the props. You're a sweetie! .and Blackheart, it's good to here from you, I miss your mangy, old, peltless skull.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
05-12-2004, 10:05 PM | #1079 |
Enting
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Just to jump in, rather late. . .(and I really ought to read the whole thing through, but don't have time now so I'll stick with throwing in my opinion for now. . .)
I don't think creation is very likely. As in, I don't really believe that. However, I think more to the point is the fact that we will never know, and are rather incapable of knowing, or finding out. Given that, as fun as these discussions are, what does it matter what each individual believes? |
05-13-2004, 01:55 PM | #1080 |
Elf Lord
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You left out slimy. With lots of tentacles.
If, just to stand everything on it's head for a minute, a supreme being created a universe consisting only of possibility, where does the certainty come from? Is there such a thing as "certainty"? If everything is possibility, how can there be certainty? Or would reality be, as someone once put it, averaged reality? I think you should all run out and study quantum physics this instant.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |