Why you believe what you believe I

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

One can base one's standards on being a decent human being without religion.

A decent human being to oneself. Nurvi, I bet Adolf Hitler would have been not only a decent human being from his own perspective, but an excellent human being. Does that make him so? Everyone knows how to justify his or her faults- as a race we are very, very skilled at it. People that are greedy are prudent, people that are lascivious are playful. I think the vast majority of the people of the world "try to be good people as they see it." Those who committed human sacrifices to idols in the past also believed they were doing the right thing. But according to scripture,

"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ays, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

If you look at Japan and Germany during World War 2, and see how entire populations behaved with such callous brutality, or if you look at the American South and see how hundreds and even thousands of "decent citizens" became racist thugs or mobs, or if you look at the mob of the City of Rome during the days of the Roman Empire . . . I could go on and on. Human nature is described accurately in that passage, in my opinion.

Belief in Christ is therefore of critical importance, because people's views without looking to the Godly standard as it is revealed to us can easily be skewed and incorrect. Indeed, without Christ in our lives actively changing us into his likeness, we cannot truly be good people.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but back to this nonbeliever, yet extremely good person... even if i buy the fact that his "goodness" comes from god... if he never chooses to recognize god for whatever reason... maybe deep down he just doesn't sincerely believe god exists, is never convinced throughout his lifetime, and does not want to be insincere... would that person go to heaven?

It's not a matter of head belief entirely, though without the head belief it is often impossible to experience the heart change. I do believe that some people who have not known the name of Christ, and have never heard of Christianity, and probably too some people that learned about Christianity in this life but rejected it, will be coming to heaven. That is not based upon their own merit, upon their own decency, but upon faith in God. Also, according to scripture ignorance will be impossible to plead on the Judgment Day.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."



It's my personal opinion that physical death is not the end of people's chances of accepting Christ, also.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I also didn't answer it because ah'm not on the hotseat, m'dear!

But if you would really like me to, then I will.

go for it hun

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

It is really simple. If any society defines the good as it chooses, there is no basis on which to judge other societies status quo. If it applies to individuals, there is no basis to judge individuals, as each is equally arbiter of the good.

That is not what you truly act on in your defense of the good of society, brownjenkins. If it were, you would have no basis for comparison. And you could not recognize "change" as for the better or not. It would merely be difference.

not really, i think the ultimate judge is results... what happens... is the society peaceful, properous, content, and moving towards more of the same... i think that the most flexible and accepting of societies fall best into this category... sure, people complain about this or that that they don't quite approve of, but they let people find their own peace in the end

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Do you believe in any higher power of undefined, yours, or other definition?

sincerely no... i'm a big fan of fantasy, dreaming, wonder... but in the end, i just don't see it... humanity, as a developed society, may very well be the highest power that exists in the universe we know... that said, it's quite an impressive development in and of itself and has a good bit of wonder on it's own

i think we still have quite a bit to discover about ourselves before we need worry about a "god"

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

It's my personal opinion that physical death is not the end of people's chances of accepting Christ, also.

i like that answer

we shall see

[inked]

brownjenkins,
I hate to keep harping on the dodge, dude, but to displace the assessment to the results is merely utilitarianism and STILL REQUIRES a standard against which outcomes are judged!

The only standard you have positied with any consistency amongst the feints is always YOURSELF as arbiter of values. Now, that is a consistent position I admit, but I contest that it is better than mine on the same grounds, so how are 'Mooters to choose (if each is a law unto himself or herself)?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

brownjenkins,
I hate to keep harping on the dodge, dude, but to displace the assessment to the results is merely utilitarianism and STILL REQUIRES a standard against which outcomes are judged!

The only standard you have positied with any consistency amongst the feints is always YOURSELF as arbiter of values. Now, that is a consistent position I admit, but I contest that it is better than mine on the same grounds, so how are 'Mooters to choose (if each is a law unto himself or herself)?

i'm not quite sure what your standard is

if it is the same as mine... that all morals are relative, that each person is their own judge of right and wrong, and that history has proven that the best way to assess right and wrong is to follow a course of action that best balances what is good for any given individual with what is good for any given society as a whole... on both a local and more global level... a lot of balancing, i admit... but that's why it's so tough... and requires constant change... then we are really in the same boat, though we may have came aboard at different ports

if, however, you standard is say, the bible... or some other set "book of rules by which we judge everything past present and future"... then we are on different boats entirely

so you will have to clarify that for me first

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

sincerely no... i'm a big fan of fantasy, dreaming, wonder... but in the end, i just don't see it... humanity, as a developed society, may very well be the highest power that exists in the universe we know... that said, it's quite an impressive development in and of itself and has a good bit of wonder on it's own

i think we still have quite a bit to discover about ourselves before we need worry about a "god"

That is a very interesting thought Brownie. This has never occured to me before, so thanks for broadening my horizon!

This leads me to another 3 questions:

Do you believe there may be other highly advanced beings in the Universe (sentient, capable of making moral decisions etc.) besides humans? Why or why not?

Are you at all worried by the fact that human beings, given our murky history, may be the highest power in the Universe? Why or why not?

Let's say for the sake of argument that we definitely are the highest power in the universe. Do you think our actions have any implications on the meaning(s) of life, or the Universe in general?


And one comment on your response to Inked:

I think that, for example, you and Inked, still are on the same boat. You judge your own morals from your heart, and Inked does too. The only difference is, Inked has read things in a book he regards as holy that affect what he feels in his heart.

Why would you be on different boats? (Maybe port and starboard...)

[inked]

Different boats. I believe there is absolute good, that it is knowable, and that it is the basis for "judgment", "discernment", and "values" amongst persons, societies, cultures, and ideologies (to list a few).

Morals are not decided by separate societies and individual to themselves. They are overarching human awarenesses of the nature of reality, common to mankind, and employed between persons, societies, and cultures, as well as ideologies.

If that is not the case, then we have not a single whit of common ground until you elaborate your beliefs so I may compare them to my own for similarities and differences. If such exist, we may engage in conversation. If we each are sole arbiters of morality, we must have common ground to agree on the nature of other persons, societies, cultures, and ideologies. If our dyad of belief finds others with similar grounds who make party with us, have we now a society? What number of such must there be for our agreed upon morality to be correct and worthy of application to all those who disagree with us? What shall we do with them? What shall we allow them to do to us? AND, the biggie, WHY?

But there we are again at the center of the thread's intent!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by inked

AND, the biggie, WHY?

Yes, I think that's the one that separates these boats.

Much can be explained by different understandings of what "why" means. If you ask "why do we have morals?", the different answers can correspond to different interpretations of the question, e.g.
1) how do we come to have morals? (morals are needed because humans evolved societies which needed norms of behaviour: an evolutionary perspective)
2) where to morals come from? (morals come from God: a theological perspective)

Pretty much all of these approaches are circular in the end, it's just that some of them end up there sooner than others.

[Rían]

Great questions, guy! I love this dialogue!

browns - I'll answer your question, but I'd like to answer it by looking up a post I wrote on it - will find it as soon as possible, but in the meantime, I'll add a question:

If you found out, after you died, that there was indeed a perfectly good and just God that judged people fairly on their actions, and one got into heaven or hell based upon their actions, do you think you should get into heaven? Why or why not? What would you say to God?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Well put Bj! Live in the real world!

And a side question to Liz -

What do you mean by that?

Do you think that people that have beliefs different from yours are not living in the real world on purpose for reasons of their own (and if so, what reasons), or are they just stupid, or what?

[brownjenkins]

actually have work at work today... and some theatre work this afternoon... but shall get to all soon... i have the replies in my head... just not the finger speed to type

[Rían]

brownie, here's my post to answer your question : here.

And I'd like to give a quick illustration - it occurred to me that many people think of God as some fastidious self-centered idiot, like, "Oh, you messy sinner! You can't come into my nice pretty clean heaven, you might smudge my robe, you naughty thing!"

May I just say - *ROLLIE EYE ALERT* If someone thinks that, let me try to clear that up, because that is SO utterly wrong.

Imagine this - you're a big, strong football player, and you're at a dinner party, and there's some people there that you haven't met yet. Imagine your hostess comes up to you and says, "I'm just making the seating arrangements, and wanted to give you a choice who to sit next to - there's Fred, who's a very interesting fellow - professor of biology at our local uni, great patron of the arts, board member of a fine children's charity, and great sense of humor. Then there's Giles, who's also a very interesting fellow - founding member of NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association - look it up ), convicted torturer and murderer, financial genius - he just loves to cheat elderly widows in a very clever way out of their life savings - I'm sure he'll be just fascinating to talk with - I know he has two young children at his house now that he regularly abuses sexually and physically against their will. Now who would you like to sit next to?"

Brownie, I hope your skin would crawl when you looked at Giles. You're a nice guy - I think it would. I would hope the only reason you would choose to sit next to Giles is to get his address from him, then beat the stuffin' out of him, run over to his house, and free those poor children and call the police. You RIGHTLY are offended by his acts - and it's not out of fear, because you're a big strong football player. He can't hurt YOU; you're indignant because of the awful things he has chosen to do.

Now if you, a person that, by your own admission, has intentionally done some things hurtful to others, are offended by that guy, can you see how God, who is absolutely 100% perfect and holy and good, in whom there is NO darkness, would be rightly offended by our actions?

See, there can't be a niceness scale with an arbitrary line set, if you want to be entirely fair. I hope you would acknowledge that NO ONE is absolutely perfect, altho there are some that are pretty good. How can you set a bar somewhere, like, "If you're good 80% of the time, then you get into heaven"? That's pretty tough luck on the guy who's good 79.9% of the time! It's basically saying that ONE lie that put him on the wrong side of the line was enough to condemn him, and you certainly would let a guy that told one lie in his entire life into heaven, wouldn't you? So to me, it makes perfect sense that it must be all or nothing.

And God doesn't stop there. He is RIGHTLY offended by our sins - yet He doesn't turn up His nose at us. He DEMONSTRATES His love for us - Jesus leaves the glories of heaven, and chooses to get born into a poor, simple family, knowing that he will be abused, spit on, tortured, lied about, and finally die a horribly painful death (do you know WHY the soliders break the legs of prisoners that are still alive and they want to die? Because in the crucifiction position, it's almost impossible to breathe unless you push yourself up; you must push against the nails in your feet to stand up enough to get a breath.)

This is NOT a God that is a fastidious, self-righteous prig. Look at the criticisms leveled against Jesus by the religious leaders of the day - they criticized Him because He associated with what they considered to be the scum of the earth people! This is a God that loves us - and did something about it. He went to the very gates of Hell to save anyone that wanted to be saved. Remember, Heaven is an actual place where God reigns and there is NO sin. It's not some giant vending machine place where you can press buttons and out comes what you think you want. If people love their sin more than they love God, they will choose to NOT be saved, because there can be no sin in Heaven. As the Bible says, NO ONE will have an excuse - we all have ENOUGH info to make an informed decision.

As far as can we change and enter Heaven after death - I don't know the answer to that, but I do know in my heart that God is entirely just and is not only loving, but IS love, so I don't see how He would withhold ANY chance for a person. However, I also believe that there comes a point where people HAVE made a decision, and are entirely vested into it, and NOTHING will change their minds, as C.S. Lewis illustrates so well in his story, "The Great Divorce".

As usual, a long post , but really, guys, these are important topics and deserve detailed answers. Reminds me of one of my finals in my uni days - I was a math minor, and tooks lots of math classes. There was one class where the topic was mathmatical transforms, like LaPlace and Fourier transforms. The final was a 3-hour final. There were only a few questions. I started working like mad, and when I stopped to stretch, one hour was gone I started again, and stopped to stretch after what seemed a few minutes, and ANOTHER hour was gone (and MORE engineering grid paper covered with calculations!) I dove in one more time, and barely finished before the last hour was up. Those were complex questions, as opposed to the questions my 2nd grader was working on last night If I had offered simple answers on that final, I would have failed, because they would NOT have been right.



refpost

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting post RÃ*an. ^_^ It's late but I want to write a bit.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And I'd like to give a quick illustration - it occurred to me that many people think of God as some fastidious self-centered idiot, like, "Oh, you messy sinner! You can't come into my nice pretty clean heaven, you might smudge my robe, you naughty thing!"

Heh... I really don't think of God along these lines, but interesting idea... does anyone?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Imagine this - you're a big, strong football player, and you're at a dinner party, and there's some people there that you haven't met yet.
::
::

Your husband is a football player isn't he...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now if you, a person that, by your own admission, has intentionally done some things hurtful to others, are offended by that guy, can you see how God, who is absolutely 100% perfect and holy and good, in whom there is NO darkness, would be rightly offended by our actions?

I don't quite see the connection, but maybe I'm missing your point. If I tell a lie, why would God be offended? If I molest a child, then God might be offended. After all this time, I still fail to see why God would care at all if no one is hurt. Like, say, if I married a woman. (But we can continue that one elsewhere. I think you know the place. )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It's basically saying that ONE lie that put him on the wrong side of the line was enough to condemn him, and you certainly would let a guy that told one lie in his entire life into heaven, wouldn't you? So to me, it makes perfect sense that it must be all or nothing.

Why not judgements on a case by case basis? I'm sure God could more than handle this.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

As the Bible says, NO ONE will have an excuse - we all have ENOUGH info to make an informed decision.

The Bible is very clear in some areas, and not clear at all in others. Reminds me of Russian forestry law and policy. *shudders*

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If I had offered simple answers on that final, I would have failed, because they would NOT have been right.

Well of course not. There's only one (or a few) solutions in math, and I bet yours were hideously complex. The simple one simply does not exist.
Oh, that was your point. Heh, I get it now!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Myself

i can base my standards on being a decent buddhist ie following basic moral teachings

sorry-post got buried

[QueenAnnesLace]

Imagine this - you're a big, strong football player

What's his BIO ? You told the other two, so I was just wondering.

Then there's Giles, who's also a very interesting fellow - founding member of NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association - look it up ), convicted torturer and murderer, financial genius - he just loves to cheat elderly widows in a very clever way out of their life savings - I'm sure he'll be just fascinating to talk with - I know he has two young children at his house now that he regularly abuses sexually and physically against their will. Now who would you like to sit next to?"

Q: Did he repent to God for his sins??? I must say as hanus as it must sound. God forgives all when someone truely is sorry. (Personally if I had known he had done those things I'd choose not to sit by him.)

I would hope the only reason you would choose to sit next to Giles is to get his address from him, then beat the stuffin' out of him, run over to his house, and free those poor children and call the police. You RIGHTLY are offended by his acts - and it's not out of fear, because you're a big strong football player. He can't hurt YOU; you're indignant because of the awful things he has chosen to do.

Isn't it up to God to judge those who do wrong ? And isn't beating someone up or as you said beating the stuffin' out of him, also wrong?

To end all of that I am just going to say I am a firm believer in God, MY God and Rian don't take me wrong. But in all honesty no one on Earth has any right to judge another. And I even mean as for judging someones religion. We believe what we believe because of what we have been taught, believe from where we are from and for whatever reason we do and/or lack of it all together. Practicing ones religion is to each thier own.

And as just a one day moderater that was something that should've been said in the religious thread. And even myself replying to yours went off topic. But keep up the good work Rian. Just know when and where to say it.




refpost[/QUOTE]

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And a side question to Liz -

What do you mean by that?

Do you think that people that have beliefs different from yours are not living in the real world on purpose for reasons of their own (and if so, what reasons), or are they just stupid, or what?

I think people who believe in supernatural beings, miracles, life after death, invisible realms and so forth, believe in a fantasy world. (It is not just that their beliefs are "different than mine" Rian, it is that they are based on things that are only true in stories.) I am always amazed when they base their "reason for living" on this fantasy world. Why they do it, I certainly couldn't say..... surely it must makes them feel good, probably for a variety of reasons...depending on the individual. This thread is supposed to help explain the "why"...isn't it?

[Baby-K]

Lizra, I believe in those 'supernatural' things, but I do not base my reason for being on it. In a way I guess it is because I firmly believe that God did create the universe way back when (maybe the Christian God, maybe not....better refer to a higher being to avoid confusion I suppose). However survival neccessitated evolution to get us to the point where we are today.

I don't particularly want to go into the details of my beliefs etc right now, but at some level I think believing in those 'fantasy' figures are comforting because it gives me a sense of hope that, no matter how crappy this life is, there is something infinitely better to look forward to. And if I'm wrong and this is all there is, then hey, I'll be dead so I can't be disappointed....the other way around however will be quite a downer.

[Lizra]

Hey! That's a nice deal for you Baby K....