Teacup Café XLII

[The last sane person]

Glad you're alright Eärniel! Just tapped a keg of whisky, dip in. Tis a good time to drink.

[Alcuin]

Good Friday to all of you.

March 25 was the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings with the destruction of the One Ring.

[The last sane person]

All the more reason to drink then, bottoms up!

[Earniel]

To that, I'll gladly drink. Ad fundum!

[Acalewia]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

One province further.

I and mine are safe, just very angry.

Glad to hear y'all are alright.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Only when your students are acting up, right? Right?

*starts backing away slowly*

No, I show it to them at the beginning of the new year. It's a wonderful preventative measure. Of course this sort of thing only works if you're willing to back it up with action...

[Mari]

Well, the days I wasn't here sure were eventful. I'm glad to hear you're okay, Earn!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Mari

No, I show it to them at the beginning of the new year. It's a wonderful preventative measure. Of course this sort of thing only works if you're willing to back it up with action...

I'll be good.



Have you had to resort to it yet?

"Alas, poor Jasper, but he shouldn't have antagonised his teacher. She's been to Japan, you see. They still haven't found all the bits yet..."

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'll be good.



Have you had to resort to it yet?

"Alas, poor Jasper, but he shouldn't have antagonised his teacher. She's been to Japan, you see. They still haven't found all the bits yet..."

Ah, Onna-bugeisha Mari! Éowyn would be proud of you!

[Earniel]

Ah, if only I had known that term when my 4-yearl-old nephew ambushed me a while ago with the question whether there were girl-knights. I said yes, but for a moment I had a real difficult dilemma trying to decide what was the right answer: the historical one (hardly), the archaeological one (warrior women, yes), the fictional one (nope, just damsels in distress) or the fairy-tale one (not traditionally, no).

[Mari]

"No, but that's because back then boys didn't yet understand that girls are just as awesome as boys and can do anything they want to do.
Fortunately boys got a bit smarter since then."

[Acalewia]

Originally Posted by Mari

"No, but that's because back then boys didn't yet understand that girls are just as awesome as boys and can do anything they want to do.
Fortunately boys got a bit smarter since then."

Slightly smarter

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Ah, if only I had known that term when my 4-yearl-old nephew ambushed me a while ago with the question whether there were girl-knights. I said yes, but for a moment I had a real difficult dilemma trying to decide what was the right answer: the historical one (hardly), the archaeological one (warrior women, yes), the fictional one (nope, just damsels in distress) or the fairy-tale one (not traditionally, no).

I don’t think a lot of women want to go to war: at least, that’s my impression from decades of discussion. My own daughter, now 24 – Éowyn’s age – vigorously disavows any such desire. Perhaps there are a great many women who do want to dress up in 40 or 60 pounds of kit, a couple of hundred rounds of ammo and other lethal munitions, trek off into confrontation with people whose purpose and desire is to main and kill you, while your express intent is to maim and kill them. That’s warfare, or so my friends and family tell me who’ve faced it.

On the other hand, outside literature – Éowyn, for instance – and the onna-bugeisha (admittedly rare, all members of nobility), there is Joan of Arc, a peasant girl from the French borderlands; Hua Mulan, who lived about the same time as King Arthur, a woman whose historicity (like Arthur’s) is periodically questioned (personally, I believe she was a real person); Queen Boudica; Lagertha the Shieldmaiden, whose sobriquet Éowyn assumes; Æthelburg of Wessex; Queen Æthelflæd of Mercia, who also led her army in battle to defeat both the Danes and the Welsh (it wasn’t wise to cross Anglo-Saxon queens!); and innumerable others into recent days.

When war is forced upon them, however, I have noticed that women are as courageous as men, though perhaps not as forward in their resistance. Aubrey Hepburn smuggled messages and weapons as a teenager in the Netherlands during the Nazi Occupation; and hers was but a single tale among thousands upon thousands.

This might be topical: I found it amusing.

[A] gold-plated silver ring believed to have been owned by the legendary French martyr Joan of Arc, who defeated the English before being burned at the stake, was sold at an auction in London for nearly £300,000. Given to Joan by her parents as a devotional object for her first communion, it was seized from her prison at her death in 1431 by a pro-English bishop and taken as war booty to England, where it remained for six centuries. The French, however, finally cried victory when they won a tense bidding battle over the relic, whose pre-sale estimate was only £10,000. The British government has now demanded the French return the ring to London, saying they should have obtained a special export licence necessary under European regulations. If the licence is deferred, a UK buyer then has an opportunity to match the price. The buyer, Philippe de Villiers, a prominent conservative and traditionalist politician, said there was no question of handing it over.

Somehow, I doubt the ring will cross the Channel again.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Mari

"No, but that's because back then boys didn't yet understand that girls are just as awesome as boys and can do anything they want to do.
Fortunately boys got a bit smarter since then."

Originally Posted by Acalewia

Slightly smarter

Which would have still been better than my original gut reaction of: 'yes, but then every male writer since then repressed the evidence because they couldn't handle women doing something in what they regarded as a purely male territory.' Strong women got erased a lot in history, but you know, a complete essay on 'sexism in history' is still a bit much to unload on an innocent four-year-old...

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think a lot of women want to go to war: at least, that’s my impression from decades of discussion.

I think in most cases war came to them.

But in the case of women actively wanting to go to a battlefield, I think the stumbling blocks they encountered were greater than (and invisible to) the men of their age.

Take Joan of Arc for example, if I recall correctly. she had to get special dispensation from the Pope to wear a pair of pants. Dispensation from the Pope. The Pope! For pants. Pants! I mean, seriously. Those male clothes is what got her executed eventually too. She had also to get permission to wear armour. No male soldier would have had that problem.

Just think of the many laws men have instated throughout the history of mankind to specifically keep women out of commerce, out of governance (and law-making), out of art and literature, out of war, out of... basically anything that men saw as uniquely theirs. Often it is not a case of what women could do, but in what they were allowed to do on pain of death, torture or social ostracism.

On the other hand, outside literature – Éowyn, for instance – and the onna-bugeisha (admittedly rare, all members of nobility), there is Joan of Arc, a peasant girl from the French borderlands; Hua Mulan, who lived about the same time as King Arthur, a woman whose historicity (like Arthur’s) is periodically questioned (personally, I believe she was a real person); Queen Boudica; Lagertha the Shieldmaiden, whose sobriquet Éowyn assumes; Æthelburg of Wessex; Queen Æthelflæd of Mercia, who also led her army in battle to defeat both the Danes and the Welsh (it wasn’t wise to cross Anglo-Saxon queens!); and innumerable others into recent days.

There are more when you know where to look. But none are quite as popular or well-known as their male counterparts. But since the original question dealth with knights specifically which narrows the historical field a lot, I had a hard time including them.

This might be topical: I found it amusing. Somehow, I doubt the ring will cross the Channel again.

The movement of art due to wars is a very interesting topic. I'd hazard the guess that most museums at this day owe their collections more to the spoils of war than to actual excavations and trade.

[Butterbeer]

That's an incredibly sexist view Alcuin.

As to art and war I'm just amazed Panama hasn't a better collection.
Leave that to the Swiss I guess?
That's if you wish to be topical.

Do you agree with the French position?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I think in most cases war came to them.

I took note of that:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

When war is forced upon them, however, I have noticed that women are as courageous as men, though perhaps not as forward in their resistance.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

That's an incredibly sexist view Alcuin.

In your opinion. “Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts,” Bernard Baruch observed, a phrase often paraphrased by and attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

As to art and war I'm just amazed Panama hasn't a better collection.
Leave that to the Swiss I guess?
That's if you wish to be topical.

Do you agree with the French position?

¿Que?

No, I am not “politically correct”. I am, however, highly irritated. Kindly do not accuse me of “sexism”.

[Earniel]

Let's play nice people.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I took note of that:

Yeah, funny thing is that I did notice that, but the rest of that sentence somehow rubbed me the wrong way that I appear to have skipped it entirely when contructing my reply.

*now off to find more dry hankerchiefs*

Bloody pollen. *grumble*

[Mari]

Ugh, the pollens have gotten to me too.

[Acalewia]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

That's an incredibly sexist view Alcuin.

As a woman, I didn't find his comments sexist at all. He was just stating what history claims. Women typically don't want to go to war, but if war comes to them, most aren't going to just sit around and wait for their men to save them.

I, for one, do not want to go to war. I have no desire to kill someone just because I'm ordered to by the higher ups before the other person can kill me. But if that same war came knocking on my door, I'm going to take up arms and defend my family, whether or not my husband is at my side or not.

History has been known to brush off the minority in favor of the majority, which is mainly men. Men tend to write history, so they make themselves look better.


But, I digress.


I'm with Earniel and Mari, I hate pollen too

[The last sane person]

Except for the fact that historically speaking, even up to present day there are laws enacted to keep women away from combat, whether they want to or otherwise. At any rate, had the combat ban been lifted sooner and pay scale equalized I'd have no problem signing up for military service. War happens regardless and some people simply need to be killed. Besides my tax dollars fund it; I have no qualms taking advantage of the benefits that would be offered by going into combat arms.