Iraq

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Because it was in the original memo, if you'd bothered to read it.
It was NOT the Observer saying this, it was the author of the memo.

The home affairs editor of the Observer said he had had agreed to interviews with CNN, NBC and Fox News Channel- but all three called back to cancel- I wonder why?

You are right - it is quoted. The Observer still is very biased in their reporting.

As for why they cancelled - there could be many reasons. One is they may not have been able to verify the truth of it. I know what you are implying - that the government put a stop to it. If that is the case - then it is also just as possible that the memo was a fake. I seriously doubt The Observer will go through the trouble of retracting the story if it was found to be a lie.

I have mixed feelings about it if it is true. I'd actually have to hear about it from a different source than just The Observer.

[Cirdan]

I'd be surprised if it wasn't true, even if the memo is a fake. The CIA needs to do something all day. Spying on our allies is more common than spying on the enemy. They are spying on us as well. Nothing new here.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I'd be surprised if it wasn't true, even if the memo is a fake. The CIA needs to do something all day. Spying on our allies is more common than spying on the enemy. They are spying on us as well. Nothing new here.

True - as I've said in the past.

By the way - I did find some of the past threads....

Gallup Poll, Saddam, and other matters. (no US bashing!)

Gah politics! Middle East discussion

[The Lady of Ithilien]

besides Osama of course, we could bomb israel and he would come up with some excuse to hate us

Nice one, JD.

As G.K. Chesteron said of another group,

"They are under no illusions;
they are too intellectual to think that man upon this earth
can ever be quite free of original sin and the struggle.
And they mean death. When they say that mankind shall be
free at last, they mean that mankind shall commit suicide.
When they talk of a paradise without right or wrong,
they mean the grave."

Saddam is of that ilk and has the vast resources of an oil-rich nation to bring it all about. That is one big reason why he is so dangerous to us all.

But it gives some segments of the "civilized" world conniptions when one of its most prominent leaders, President Bush, in his 2003 State of the Union Address tells it like it is:

"If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."

All these decades, evil has been been downplayed or rewritten as really not such a bad thing after all. Those ten words undercut it all. And a good thing, too.

[Linaewen]

I leave you with the best strip yet to come from Aaron McGruder's Boondocks comic: they're talking about how some world leaders have come under fire for comparing Bush to Hitler for his warmongering, and Huey says: "That's ridiculous! Even I wouldn't compare Bush to Hitler. After all, Hitler was democratically elected."

LOL! I'm very anti-war but i just find that type of dry humour so funny. That quote was from the protest's thread but i think what i'm posting might suit this one more.

I think i would support the war effort if they could just JUSTIFY it. Get some conclusive evidence. But wait, i've found an article of a newspaper web site regarding evidence against Iraq.. I'll just post the first couple cos it's pretty long.

Here's the proof: (ps. sorry if any of you have seen it already)

A collection of Colin Powell's useful facts relating to the proposed actions in the Gulf region:

A: Seven proofs of links between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
1. On an audiotape, Osama bin Laden calls Iraq a "stinking cesspit of socialist debauchery". This criticism is much less hostile than the sort of thing he says about America, thus proving al-Qaeda has warm feelings towards Saddam Hussein.
2. Our surveillance has picked up chatter from al-Qaeda operatives talking about organising a "rendezvous". "Rendezvous" is a French word, and France has constantly obstructed American attempts to impose regime change in Iraq. So again, we see a clear connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq.
3. Our spy planes have photographed Saddam's deputy prime minister being driven in a motorcade of Mercedes cars. Mercedes is a German car, and Germany is in league with France to destroy America, like al-Qaeda. Therefore, etc.

If anyone wants, i'll post the rest up later

[The Lady of Ithilien]

I think i would support the war effort if they could just JUSTIFY it. Get some conclusive evidence.

It could hardly be more conclusive. The UN Security Council unanimously passed Resolution 1441, calling on Saddam Hussein to "'fess up" and get rid of the WMDs or face the consequences, and he didn't do it. Simple.

Likely the last 12 years have given him the impression he can get away with that, and indeed, a considerable amount of energy in the western world is being focused right now on just that: letting him get away with it.

Countries who should know better, too; countries who learned the hard way what happened when the world let Hitler get away with it one or two times too many.

No, the matter is this, as Colin Powell has said quite clearly: "It's a question of intent on the part of the Iraqi leadership. The answer to that question does not come from how many inspectors are present or how much more time should be given or how much more effort should be put into the inspection process. It's not a question of how many unanswered clusters of questions are there, or are there more benchmarks that are needed, or are there enough unresolved issues that have been put forward to be examined and analyzed and conclusions reached about.

"The answer depends entirely on whether Iraq has made the choice to actively cooperate in every possible way, on every possible manner in the immediate and complete disarmament of itself of its prohibited weapons. That's what 1441 calls for."

And he hasn't done it. So he's going to face serious consequences. That's not a matter that requires justification. That is a matter that affects all our safety and security, and that of our children and the world we are going to leave them.

To expand upon the "evil has no meaning" business a bit more, President Bush's entire statement was: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages -- leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind, or disfigured. Iraqi refugees tell us how forced confessions are obtained -- by torturing children while their parents are made to watch. International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."

That's conclusive. There is more, if you are interested, at the Irag Foundation online, particularly in its human rights and the Iraq Research section there, which documents "I. Oppression by Procedures II.Detention, Arrest and Deportation III.Execution IV.Systematic Deportation and Elimination of Villages V.Psychological Warfare VI.Fertility Campaign VII.Security Intelligence."

And virtuous people opposed to war....laugh? Make jokes, offer witty slogans, and host dry cutting-edge Web sites on the ridiculousness of it all, but never, ever raise their voices against or make a target of Saddam Hussein?

Just what are you all going to say to the Iraqi people after their relief from this oppressor? Some of them may feel strongly enough about this to seek you out personally after this is all over, so they can look you straight in the face as they ask: what were you thinking?

What will you say to them?

But that's "just" human rights stuff. As for NBC -- the triad of weapons of mass destruction -- Hussein undeniably has C, chemicals -- he's used them on his own people. That's enough right there to start with, though the biological (which Hussein admitted to in 1995) and nuclear components are not negligible, of course.

He's not supposed to have those chemical weapons: that's what the last 12 years of UN resolutions have been about. He hasn't accounted for those weapons. Indeed in his remarks to the UN Security Council recently, from which the above quote was also taken, Secretary Powell said the recent report by the UN inspectors "conclusively shows that Iraq had and still has the capability to manufacture these kinds of weapons; that Iraq had and still has the capability to manufacture, not only chemical, but biological weapons; and that Iraq had and still has literally tens of thousands of delivery systems, including increasingly capable and dangerous unmanned aerial vehicles."

And that's not even getting into the terrorist networks which Saddam finances and shelters in Iraq and elsewhere, networks which we have seen can strike even in the heart of America.

As the Secretary told the Council, the clock continues to tick, and it will either turn out to be a bomb that blows up under us all, or it will mark the final countdown to the end of a very dangerous and very bad man and his regime.

[GrayMouser]

To expand upon the "evil has no meaning" business a bit more, President Bush's entire statement was: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages -- leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind, or disfigured.

And of course after he had done this, and had been known to have done this, the U.S. government under Ronald Reagan continued to support his manufacturing of poison gas.

First, the U.S. tried to claim that both Iran and Iraq was responsible, even though they knew from their ownintelligence it wasn't true.

Then in1988, in response to the gassing of the Kurds at Halabja Senators Claiborne Pell, Jesse Helms and Al Gore sponsored the "Prevention of Genocide Act", which passed the Senate unanimously. The Reagan Administration, which had been supporting Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran (providing equipment for making chemical and biological weapons and intelligence to enable him to use gas against the Iranians), saw this as a threat to U.S security and commercial interests and strongly opposed the Act.

V-P George H. W. Bush was dispatched to the House of Representatives to lobby against it; Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell (at that time National Security Adviser) and then-Congressman Richard Cheney also worked to torpedo the Act and continue to do business as usual with Saddam.

I'm in favour of war to take out this butcher, but I don't believe for one minute these scumbags with their crocodile tears care in the least what happened to the Kurds- look how quickly they were willing to sell them out to the Turks in exchange for use of their bases.

[Dúnedain]

Someone want to type a summary for me since I've missed about 10 pages of this, ugh

Oh well, I will just pick up here

Today I ran across this article from the Daily Mirror, in the UK. From what I gather, and any British people can back me up, the DM doesn't isn't usually supportive of the "Colonials" across the Atlantic. Anyway, I think this article just about sums everything up for the USA.

---------

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting
---- the mass murder of thousands, live on television.

As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent,the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.

There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture,language and blood. A little over half a century ago,around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics.

Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, Some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

[continued]

[Dúnedain]

[continued]

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex...

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they
should stick to confetti.

America could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button.

We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalists are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't
believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth.

The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries.

How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess thatmakes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.

Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, and optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one! Remember, remember, September 11.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember.

Never forget

[jerseydevil]

That was a really good post Dúnedain. Isn't it ironic that these "anti-war" people are the same who said that the US shouldn't take action against Osama Bin Ladin after our embassy bombings because he hadn't directly attacked us and civilians would die in the process. We were expected to wait until Bin Ladin actually did something to us - Americans were also at fault in requiring this proof of danger. I wonder how many other counties would have held back and not lashed out immediately. That post also reminded me of the school kids from Washington DC who were on a school trip. They were on the Dulles flight - their plane crashed into the Pentagon.

I think all the people who demonstrated against action being taken against Bin Ladin - prior to 9/11 - should be made to pay for the rebuilding of the Twin Towers and should pay each of the families. Part of the reason we backed down - which I disagreed with it - was the outcry of demonstrators. We should have tracked Bin Ladin harder - we won't make the same mistake twice.


Linaewen - there ARE links between Hussein and terrorism. He gives $25,000 - $50,000 to each family of a palestinian suicide bomber. He coudl be putting that money into supporting schools or other benefits for his people.

However, I personally wish the Bush administration would lay off the Al Qaeda/Iraq link. I don't think that argument is necessary for us to go into Iraq. If we don't do something about Iraq now - then they will be just like North Korea - except instead of heavy weaponry - they'll have aresol cans which can kill thousands of people on subways, in malls, trains.

I'm not as afraid of a nuclear bomb as I am of dying from small pox or ebola. I live just 30 miles from Newark Libery Airport - if someone comes in carrying a biological disease as a walking, living biological bomb there is a good chance I will get it.

Also - do you reaslise how quickly someone getting on a plane infected with a biological disease can spread that around the country? around the world? Newark Liberty is one of the busiest airports in the US. About 10% of the US population lives within a 200 mile radius of that airport.

By the way - the post office which processed all the Anthrax letters after 9/11 - was my processing center. It's still closed. It's wrapped in plastic and they said it should finally be cleaned up by the end of the year.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I'm not as afraid of a nuclear bomb as I am of dying from small pox or ebola. I live just 30 miles from Newark Libery Airport - if someone comes in carrying a biological disease as a walking, living biological bomb there is a good chance I will get it.

Also - do you reaslise how quickly someone getting on a plane infected with a biological disease can spread that around the country? around the world? Newark Liberty is one of the busiest airports in the US. About 10% of the US population lives within a 200 mile radius of that airport.

By the way - the post office which processed all the Anthrax letters after 9/11 - was my processing center. It's still closed. It's wrapped in plastic and they said it should finally be cleaned up by the end of the year.

I hear ya bro, I live about 10-15 minutes from the White House, Capitol Hill, Regan National Airport, Dulles International Airport and every other major US Governmental building/agency in the DC Metro Area!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

That was a good post, Dúnedain.

The fundamentalists are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

Exactly. And we didn't. Instead we built a coalition and freed a country so that it could, among other things, rebuild its heritage.

Re: the biologicals, have you checked out the information at the Homeland Security Web site? There's a good selection of information on all threats, some of it detailed for experts, some written for the general public. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.

[Coney]

Well, I've been away from this thread for a while now but from a UK standpoint I must say that things are looking marvelous

Our MP's are starting to actually voice their opinions agains the Prime Minister.....and Tony Blair has recently called to the UN to give more time to allow Iraq more time to disarm.

With any luck, this'll carry on until the UK decides not to use it's troops in the attack

I must say that I agree with a lot of the Americans on these boards, it is high-time that America dissacociated itself from the UN.

Well, have a lovely war folks! And hope one of those MOAB bombs doesn't accidentaly hit Iran's nuclear power plant......in fact pray like hell that Iraq hasn't hidden a missile that is capable of reaching the plant.............Try not to cause another Chernobyl,

Oh, and keep an eye on the Shi'ite people...I don't think that they have forgotten that America armed them, then left to suffer......

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I'm not as afraid of a nuclear bomb as I am of dying from small pox or ebola.

Well I keep thinking about that nuclear bomb personally. Yes its less likely of a scenerio but all it takes is one and Washington DC is vaporized in an atomic cloud. No warning. Nothing falling from the sky. Just a normal day and then suddenly you and 300,000 of your neighbors have their bodies reduced to atoms in an instant. Thats quite a way to go. I dont mind getting bloody as long as I can see death coming. Not to mention the seat of government is completely anihilated. Dúnedain DC would be ground zero as you well know so we would be the ones most likely to catch a nuke. I can handle planes and even horrifc nasty scary diseases. But one nuke spoils the party. And you know thats the terrorist's ultimate dream. But I fear we are becoming like the boy trying to plug the dike with his fingers as more and more countries get nukes. Sooner or later we wont be able to check the spread of nuclear technology and anyone who wants one will be able to get one. Then what.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well I keep thinking about that nuclear bomb personally. Yes its less likely of a scenerio but all it takes is one and Washington DC is vaporized in an atomic cloud. No warning. Nothing falling from the sky. Just a normal day and then suddenly you and 300,000 of your neighbors have their bodies reduced to atoms in an instant. Thats quite a way to go. I dont mind getting bloody as long as I can see death coming. Not to mention the seat of government is completely anihilated. Dúnedain DC would be ground zero as you well know so we would be the ones most likely to catch a nuke. I can handle planes and even horrifc nasty scary diseases. But one nuke spoils the party. And you know thats the terrorist's ultimate dream. But I fear we are becoming like the boy trying to plug the dike with his fingers as more and more countries get nukes. Sooner or later we wont be able to check the spread of nuclear technology and anyone who wants one will be able to get one. Then what.

While the threat of a nuclear attack does worry me, I do think you are underestmating what the terrorists are capable of.

9/11 was indeed a horrific event but it was mostly a symbolic attack......those planes could just have easily been flown into a chemical plant, an oil refinary or a nuclear power plant....hell, they could have been flown into a nuclear missile base! Millions dead would have been the result.

Now that is a prospect that I find scary, I only hope that the next terrorist attacks (and I think everyone agrees there will be more) don't follow those lines. Somehow tho', I think they will.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Well, I've been away from this thread for a while now but from a UK standpoint I must say that things are looking marvelous

Our MP's are starting to actually voice their opinions agains the Prime Minister.....and Tony Blair has recently called to the UN to give more time to allow Iraq more time to disarm.

Well then you better hope that the resolution doesn't get vetoed. If France or Russia vetoes- the US isn't waiting around for the UN to get it's head out of it's a$$.

With any luck, this'll carry on until the UK decides not to use it's troops in the attack

Or until Hussein is another North Korea and is a much bigger problem or until the world loses interest and let's Hussein go with his viro-lab experiments???

Britain has over 40,000 troops right now in Kuwait - do you really think they won't be used?

I must say that I agree with a lot of the Americans on these boards, it is high-time that America dissacociated itself from the UN.

Yeah - it would save a hell of a lot of tax money considering we pay for 25% of the UN expenses. I know you guys complain about us not paying our dues - but we pay A LOT more than dues.

Well, have a lovely war folks! And hope one of those MOAB bombs doesn't accidentaly hit Iran's nuclear power plant......in fact pray like hell that Iraq hasn't hidden a missile that is capable of reaching the plant.............Try not to cause another Chernobyl,

Well - just hope that Hussein doesn't give a terrorist some of his biological or chemical weaponry and decide to attack the London Underground. Wouldn't there be hell t pay for the PMs who are against war with Iraq and then in a couple of years he launches a bio-attack. Sort of reminds me of how Churchhill was treated prior to WWII. He lost his job because he wanted to take preventive action against Hitler - and then was called back after WWII started.

Oh, and keep an eye on the Shi'ite people...I don't think that they have forgotten that America armed them, then left to suffer......

I'm not sure - the Arab countries seem to have forgotten who actually used their "countries" as political pawns.

I'm sure over there they're only showing all the Iraqis and Arabs who don't like the US. They don't show you the mothers, wives and sisters who are raped in front of their family members who are in jail. Or what about the Marsh Arabs - do you know anything about them? Look up the AMAR Foundation, run by the British Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne if you want to know what they went through.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well I keep thinking about that nuclear bomb personally. Yes its less likely of a scenerio but all it takes is one and Washington DC is vaporized in an atomic cloud. No warning. Nothing falling from the sky. Just a normal day and then suddenly you and 300,000 of your neighbors have their bodies reduced to atoms in an instant.

The key word is instant there. You'd be vaporized in a second. No pain - no long hours of suffering as viruses eat at your flesh from the inside. Eyes filling with blood, or stomach and internal organs slowly turning to mush.

Thats quite a way to go. I dont mind getting bloody as long as I can see death coming. Not to mention the seat of government is completely anihilated. Dúnedain DC would be ground zero as you well know so we would be the ones most likely to catch a nuke. I can handle planes and even horrifc nasty scary diseases. But one nuke spoils the party. And you know thats the terrorist's ultimate dream. But I fear we are becoming like the boy trying to plug the dike with his fingers as more and more countries get nukes. Sooner or later we wont be able to check the spread of nuclear technology and anyone who wants one will be able to get one. Then what.

Well that's why we should work on a missile defense shield while we have a chance. Chances are a stuitcase bomb isn't going to be able to do that kind of damage. That at most right now would be a dirty bomb.

I remember people saying we didn't need a missile defense system because of the downfall of the Soviet Union. North Korea I think is making California think twice about their vocal opposition to that idea now.

[Coney]

Well then you better hope that the resolution doesn't get vetoed. If France or Russia vetoes- the US isn't waiting around for the UN to get it's head out of it's a$$.

Oh, I do still hope that the move is towards a veto. That way everything stands of the shoulders of Tony Blair. If he goes to war then we remain America's allies, if he doesn't go to war then our standing with Russia, China, Germany and France is strengthened in the UN...when America does leave the UN, we have allies on both sides......The UK seems to be coming out of this in a win/win situation

Or until Hussein is another North Korea and is a much bigger problem or until the world loses interest and let's Hussein go with his viro-lab experiments???

NKorea is already a much bigger problem....certainly wouldn't fancy sitting in a Tokyo restaurant at the mo'.

Iraq is currently disarming, and yes, yes..I know the whole conspiracy theory of hidden weapons....but he can hardly use them can he?....Even Saddam isn't mad enough to let his entire country be destroyed in the backlash.

Britain has over 40,000 troops right now in Kuwait - do you really think they won't be used?

Well, we can hope not....it's usually our lads that end up doing the fighting tho'.

Well - just hope that Hussein doesn't give a terrorist some of his biological or chemical weaponry and decide to attack the London Underground.

Oh I'm pretty sure that Saddam already has terrorists working for him all over the world......In fact I can see terriorist attacks happing immediatly after the Iraq invasion.....I'd be surprised if they didn't go on for decades.

I'm not sure - the Arab countries seem to have forgotten who actually used their "countries" as political pawns.

I'm sure over there they're only showing all the Iraqis and Arabs who don't like the US. They don't show you the mothers, wives and sisters who are raped in front of their family members who are in jail. Or what about the Marsh Arabs - do you know anything about them? Look up the AMAR Foundation, run by the British Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne if you want to know what they went through.

JD I just love your use of history to give emphasis on the justification of an attack

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
While the threat of a nuclear attack does worry me, I do think you are underestmating what the terrorists are capable of.

Underestimating? I thought your argument has always been that we're just paranoid Americans. I think a bunch of fanatics are capable of anythign and will go to any lengths to destroy America. I think the whole Middle East has to be changed and cleaned out of a terrorists and if that means taking out Hussein and working down - so be it.

9/11 was indeed a horrific event but it was mostly a symbolic attack......

Let me put this in the paper around here so the 1000's of family members of the victims who live around me can read that "9/11 was mostly a symbolic attack". I have to remember that everytime I go on the Turnpike or go to New York or to Liberty State Park or whereever I used to see the Twin Towers rising into the sky.

those planes could just have easily been flown into a chemical plant, an oil refinary or a nuclear power plant....hell, they could have been flown into a nuclear missile base! Millions dead would have been the result.

I know that -but they weren't. Now we must fight to prevent that as well as other things from happening. I live within 90 miles of 3 Nuclear Power Plants. Indiana Point in New York is under heavy guard - It's just across the northern border of New Jersey.

Now that is a prospect that I find scary, I only hope that the next terrorist attacks (and I think everyone agrees there will be more) don't follow those lines. Somehow tho', I think they will.

No - I think their next plan of attack is movie theaters, restaurants, malls, etc. It's easy to get a bomb into one of those areas. it's easy to infect thousands of people with a deadly disease there. It's much easier than dealing with nuclear.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well I keep thinking about that nuclear bomb personally. Yes its less likely of a scenerio but all it takes is one and Washington DC is vaporized in an atomic cloud. No warning. Nothing falling from the sky. Just a normal day and then suddenly you and 300,000 of your neighbors have their bodies reduced to atoms in an instant. Thats quite a way to go. I dont mind getting bloody as long as I can see death coming. Not to mention the seat of government is completely anihilated. Dúnedain DC would be ground zero as you well know so we would be the ones most likely to catch a nuke. I can handle planes and even horrifc nasty scary diseases. But one nuke spoils the party. And you know thats the terrorist's ultimate dream. But I fear we are becoming like the boy trying to plug the dike with his fingers as more and more countries get nukes. Sooner or later we wont be able to check the spread of nuclear technology and anyone who wants one will be able to get one. Then what.

I'm not worried about Nuclear Weapons, because there isn't a way for transportation. As JD said in his above post, the best they could do now is a suitcase bomb or something small like that and that just wouldn't do much, of course it would do something though, I am not discounting that. In order for anything to happen on the number level you described it would have to be dropped from an aircraft and there is absolutely no way we would sit back and watch a big bomber nonchalantely come into American Airspace...