04-30-2004, 12:23 PM | #1041 | |
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Ohfergoodnesssakes! Pardon me while I go off and have a good laugh at MYSELF .... *walks away* *sounds of uproarious laughter heard* *returns with a red and rueful face* OK, well, so I'm not as good a writer as I thought. I kinda thought I was a bit of a good writer, but seriously, GM, if you thought you had to instruct me about those things, then it's clear I'm NOT getting a big point across that I thought was pretty obvious. Honestly, for you to write what you did, this is what you must think I'm suggesting - destroy all labs, tell everyone to go home, set up one answering machine under the listing "SCIENCE", and set up the recording to play "God did it!" when it's called. *sigh* OF COURSE science is based on the assumption of stable, observable natural laws! If they weren't, then we really WOULD just have to do the scenario above, except change the recording to "give it up, you fool!" (and the recording wouldn't work, anyway, without stable natural laws). What THIS thread is talking about is creationism/evolutionism. And creationism says there is ONE, INITIAL act of divine creation, which would of course include setting up natural laws, and then things are turned loose to operate under those natural laws and also under free-will choices (subject to natural laws). Creationism ALSO assumes observable, stable natural laws. The only difference between the two is the initial conditions. Cr. says that an intelligent, powerful God set things up, including natural laws. Ev. says there's only natural laws behind things. And in most of those fields you mentioned, they can observe and measure things in the present.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-30-2004, 12:29 PM | #1042 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And re BOP's post, where she posts some definitions of micro and macro evolution, here ....
from the "Proposed Mechanisms" part, I'll re-quote: Quote:
Let me point it out. (and btw, at least they make a distinction and call them "historical sciences". And people in these sciences do the best they can do, and good for them! But they are not equal with sciences that can experiment with things in the present, and that's just a fact! I'm sorry, and I know they try hard and really do the best they can do, but if something's in the past, it's in the past, and no amount of sincerity can change that, and there's no way to verify a hypothesis, altho there's ways to check for INDICATIONS that it's true or false.) OK, so macroevolution (a theory dealing with what happened in the past) is testable and falsifiable. At least they said "in this way", and I hope they realize that it's not the SAME WAY as other in-the-present sciences. Here is my theory, which is testable and falsifiable in the SAME MANNER as macroevolution is. I propose that somehow the earth got here (same starting point as macroevolution) and some goo developed in some primordial sea (favorite phrase of some people). Then a lightning bolt hit the goo and formed proteins & etc. and a one-celled thingy appeared. Then an alien from another planet zoomed over and zapped the one-celled thingy and it became a two-celled thingy. This was repeated over and over and things got more complex. Whenever the aliens felt bored, they zapped an organism and it mutated. If the mutations were advantageous, then the newly zapped things lived, else they died out. I predict that in the fossil record, there will be sudden occurances of new species, and there will be a tendency for simpler, smaller organisms to be on the bottom and more complex ones on the top. This is falsifiable if the fossil record does NOT look like this. My point here is not to ridicule evolutionists, but to merely point out that you can SAY that a theory can be formed to be predictive and falsifiable, but if it's based on things that are NO LONGER OBSERVABLE in the present, then it's NOT in the same class as things that can be observed in the present. All it is is an educated guess, which if that's all you can do, then go ahead and good luck; but don't equate it with things that CAN be falsified with actual experiments on an EXISTING thing. Quote:
But of course scientist are free to sincerely make their best guesses in this field (and try to find everything possible to support the idea that there's no God to whom they might be accountable for their choices) as they will NEVER be able to actually see what happens, until the day of judgement arrives, if we're allowed to see a play-back (which I hope we are). (and again, I'm talking about scientists that say there are ONLY naturalistic causes behind creation, which means there is no God behind creation.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-30-2004 at 12:56 PM. |
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04-30-2004, 12:46 PM | #1043 | |
Quasi Evil
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04-30-2004, 01:02 PM | #1044 | |||
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EDIT - IRex, I was in the middle of a massive edit when you posted - you might want to check the post above yours
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-30-2004 at 01:03 PM. |
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04-30-2004, 01:10 PM | #1045 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-30-2004, 01:32 PM | #1046 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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...but you have failed to show the difference between the two. If there were some barrier to evolutionary change it should be fairly evident. If microevolution is a natural law (still really a theory, but for discussion's sake) then the limit should be testable. Just saying it can't because it can't doesn't play. Chesterton's analogy is just that, not an actual fact. Like all analogies it fails under scrutiny. It reminds me of the old chestnut about the city fellow that stops the coutry fellow and asks for directions. He responds, "You can't get there from here!". This really means the route is complicated and the fellow doesn't know the way. I have yet to hear the definition of "type". Are birds a single type? Are ostriches, penguins, and geese alll one type? The details of how this is set up is critical to analyzing how certain unusual species that are very similar in some ways and very different in others. How about fish? boneless, cartilagenous, notochord, spiny, lobe-finned, lungfish. Are the types the same as the standard classifications used in science but with dotted lines betweeen things that are not allowed to be related? It just that biologists sometimes disagree about these categories so it would be very useful to know the exact nature of "kinds" of things.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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04-30-2004, 01:46 PM | #1047 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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a) complexity can not come about without intelligence... god-directed evolution covers this b) things can not change from one thing to another... god-directed evolution covers this god-directed evolution also doesn't require one to throw out all the evidence that seems to point to the earth being very old and filled with life forms that change over that period of time is there any one of your arguments god-directed evolution can not explain?
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04-30-2004, 03:52 PM | #1048 |
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Maybe you have a different defn. of God-directed evolution than I have, brownie. The one I've seen is that basically God gave little nudges where needed to direct things the way He intended, but that basically it's invisible to us - we can't tell it apart from the macroevolutionary changes that supposedly occurred without His help. And how do you formulate any type of scientific hypothesis for this additional element of "God-help", anyway? I don't see how you can, so it's not even a scientific element. It's just the same as classic evolutionism, except it seems like it was just a crumb thrown to theists. "God did it" is not a scientific answer, either in cr. or ev.
However, "God did it, and in this specific manner" is a starting point to formulate what hypotheses can be formed in creationism, and "natural laws did it, and in this specific manner" is a starting point to formulate what hypotheses can be formed in evolutionism.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-30-2004, 04:18 PM | #1049 | |||||
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OF COURSE I realize that evolutionists v. reasonably say that there's not enough time to observe macroevolution - but that doesn't give them a free pass to say it happens. And as far as testable, well, some things aren't reasonably testable, like macroevolution. So you do the best you can with what you have. And the best we have is that ... observably, changes hit limits. Quote:
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I would say that "kinds" would be roughly the same thing as species - a developing working definition. The Bible doesn't state what the "kinds" are, but it does mention major categories of animals. And evolutionism has these category lines being crossed, while the Bible says they are not crossable. The Bible's primary purpose is not science, but the hearts and souls of people, so it makes sense that there's not a discussion of Euclidean geometry in it. Leave it up to the people to discover! Life is amazing! and God has designed us to wonder and to explore. But whatever statements in the Bible happen to fall under the umbrella of science can be tested. I would say that one doesn't need to quibble about whether finches with one type of beak are one kind and finches with another type of beak are another, when it's easier and clearer to deal with the extremes. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-30-2004 at 04:23 PM. |
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04-30-2004, 04:40 PM | #1050 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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too late friday to get too deep... in the end though, anytime you decide to throw an ultimate being into the picture, everything is questionable... as i said quite a while back in this thread or another, what's to say he just didn't bring everything into existance exactly as it is last tuesday? the only things you can truely theorize about are the parts god did not do... the rest is just a wild guess, since after all, god can do anything he likes by definition... even change a fish to a finch if he wished too
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-30-2004, 05:12 PM | #1051 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(reminds me of "things that go bump in the night" ) (also reminds me of a category in Jeopardy - "I'll have 'things that make you go hmmm' for $100, Alex" ) Quote:
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God, I love you guys, you're all so great ... and God loves you too, even more. Look at the stars this weekend - really look - they're calling to you...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-30-2004 at 05:25 PM. |
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05-03-2004, 09:39 AM | #1052 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-03-2004, 12:12 PM | #1053 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Sorry for the rabbit trail When you said "god can do anything he likes by definition" it just got me to thinking about how the thing He wants to do the most, He has chosen NOT to do (because forced love is worthless, and free will is not free if something is forced).
I think we might be done here, anyway, at least for this round. Until the next time when an innocent person claims that moths in England conclusively prove the entire theory of evolution, the Masked Assumption Buster flies off into the sunset ... *grabs a Dr. Pepper and the Silmarillion and puts her feet up*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-03-2004, 03:53 PM | #1054 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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until the next time the lines between fact and fancy get a bit blurred
*grabs a bass ale and settles down to read a bit more dune*
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
05-03-2004, 05:41 PM | #1055 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*gives brownie a poke in the ribs*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-03-2004, 09:10 PM | #1056 |
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You two behave yerselves, or I'll travel back in time with my tardis, and unmake Homo superior.
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05-03-2004, 11:41 PM | #1057 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*snags BoP's pants and hightails it out of the thread*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-08-2004, 11:00 AM | #1058 | ||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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It's been a while but I've been quite preoccupied.
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Two Theories that cannot be tested. 1) Julius Ceasar was a Roman Emperor 2) Donald Duck was a Roman Emperor Which one has more physical evidence and historical credibility based on the remaining fragments of an incomplete picture of the roman empire? Quote:
The only point of Chesterton's analogy is that, fast or slow, impossible is impossible. This analogy does nothing to prove possiblilty or impossibility. It is merely a ruse; a distraction from the point at hand. The point of the analogy about the coutry guy isn't whether he is right or wrong but that he doesn't know and can't imagine the possibility. The fly, because of it's bizzarre mutation (adapts well to weightlessness), is carried along on the first manned trip to Mars as a biological experiemennt. Or should I call NASA and let them know Mars is unreachable and they ought to cancel the project? Quote:
Good luck with Noah's Ark, then. Quote:
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BTW, you are still confusing the hypothesis of abiogenesis with the theory of evolution. Do I go around confusing Moses with Jesus? *heads off to the library to get Children of Dune*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-08-2004, 04:01 PM | #1059 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-10-2004, 05:30 PM | #1060 | |||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And you can't "prove" something "might" happen. Quote:
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And he's right. Quote:
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And BTW, if you want the chapter and verse of a priority list, try Matthew 19:16-26; and there are others. And BTW #2, not all of the 10 commandments are "NOT"s. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-10-2004 at 05:43 PM. |
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