REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Agnostics like to pull out "we'll never know for sure" like some kind of a trump card. Well, it's not - and it's certainly not news! I say - use your senses, use your brain, give it some time, and make a decision about your beliefs, then ACT on your beliefs for what you believe to be right and good. Make a difference with your life! Stay open to other thoughts, too, and keep thinking things through, and see if perhaps maybe you need to change your decision if you find sufficient new evidence. But don't STAY in a permanant "we'll never know" place - or if you do, realize that THAT is also a decision, and it can be changed.

oh damn i missed "attack the agnostics" day. good thing bj caught up to that "agnostics are all cop outs" statement before I did let me tell you...

the very IDEA of a devout creationist christian castigating agnostics for being close minded and short thinking... oh my goodness... thats the very height of hypocrisy in my evidently limited opinion...

im trying to control my vitriol so Ill just apologize ahead of time for whatever i say here but let me just say that the very idea of being agnostic REQUIRES that you KEEP your mind open to all possibilities and spend your existence in vigilant observation of the truth of the world that surrounds you in what you can perceive and what (if anything) we can learn about what we CANT perceive. So for a person (a christian!) to label that kind of thinking as a cop out... well thats just simply mind boggling to me rian.

Having spent many years learning about the very roots of all religions and tracing the history of man's religion in a strictly neutral, academic and information hungry sense it has become quite clear to me that christianity is simply a manifestation of something that has trailed continuously throughout history as mans way of approaching his world. If you look at ancient judaic scriptures (and more importantly the pre-judean works that predated the concept of the god of Abraham) you see a steady EVOLVING conceptualizing among the humans of the ancient middle east of a god concept that like a river meandered back and forth until it culminated with the whole jesus story. you see a very different concept for god throughout this time. From a highly personal extremely vindictive one to a softer forgiving deity of unlimited power. From a cult buoyed by myths and force to a revolution carried and simmered by the meekest and the downtrodden. But all along its an evolving one. To ME this tells me something about HUMANITY and not about divinity. It tells me how the mind works and how ancient societies conceptualized and how strong the urge for having something bigger is in man. It has done nothing BUT reinforce my agnostic approach to observing the universe. So to say agnostics purposefully stick themselves in a place where they refuse to budge and refuse to learn any further about their world is maddeningly ridiculous in the highest. We are open to ALL possibilities. Just SHOW them to us. Dont sit there and say well see if you would just have FAITH youd understand the TRUTH. the TRUTH is right in front of me. And it includes the fact that mass delusion is a human psychological standard. I guess its up to humans to sit here and argue whose delusion is the real delusion. But as an agnostic Im the only one who can say it could be any one of us or all of us.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Having spent many years learning about the very roots of all religions and tracing the history of man's religion in a strictly neutral, academic and information hungry sense it has become quite clear to me that christianity is simply a manifestation of something that has trailed continuously throughout history as mans way of approaching his world. If you look at ancient judaic scriptures (and more importantly the pre-judean works that predated the concept of the god of Abraham) you see a steady EVOLVING conceptualizing among the humans of the ancient middle east of a god concept that like a river meandered back and forth until it culminated with the whole jesus story. you see a very different concept for god throughout this time. From a highly personal extremely vindictive one to a softer forgiving deity of unlimited power. From a cult buoyed by myths and force to a revolution carried and simmered by the meekest and the downtrodden. But all along its an evolving one. To ME this tells me something about HUMANITY and not about divinity. It tells me how the mind works and how ancient societies conceptualized and how strong the urge for having something bigger is in man. It has done nothing BUT reinforce my agnostic approach to observing the universe. So to say agnostics purposefully stick themselves in a place where they refuse to budge and refuse to learn any further about their world is maddeningly ridiculous in the highest. We are open to ALL possibilities. Just SHOW them to us. Dont sit there and say well see if you would just have FAITH youd understand the TRUTH. the TRUTH is right in front of me. And it includes the fact that mass delusion is a human psychological standard. I guess its up to humans to sit here and argue whose delusion is the real delusion. But as an agnostic Im the only one who can say it could be any one of us or all of us.

Hey I-Rex,

I'll let Rian speak for herself, but knowing her, I doubt she intended any offense to agnostics.

For this part I quote, I have NOT formally studied a whole lot about religions in an academic setting. I actually tried just a little, started a 'Religious Studies' course at the U of Illinois 20-some years ago - and had to drop it. I found the professor to be quite (*SEE BELOW) dismissive toward any actual expression of a Christian viewpoint or opinion. Maybe this is not the case everywhere, but it gave me the impression that there's no room for belief (or even a search for metaphysical 'truth') in an academic study of 'religions'.

Meanwhile, I've tried to educate myself a bit more informally about my own faith, as well as other religions. I still see Christianity as quite unique and apart from all the others (more so than any of the others are in their own right), but must also admit that my viewpoint can't help but be biased. *sigh* but what can I say... ? I cannot escape myself.

None of this is meant to jump on you... just to explain why I (and perhaps others) tend to be a bit leery of the academic viewpoint on religions.

*EDIT: I initially used the word 'antagonistic' above, but after thinking about it, came back and replaced it with 'dismissive' - which was I think a more accurate description. It had a feeling of more contempt than hostility.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

*sigh* Beliefs are silly. But it's against our nature to defy them, and we all have them to some extent. Opinions are stupid. But that is an opinion so now I am a self-proclaimed stupid hypocrate. I wish we could percieve and not judge.
<hippie

[Insidious Rex]

well when i say "academic" i dont necessarily mean the strictly ivory tower dictations of ivy league liberal minds. I mean a more general approach to learning all I can about various religions. I have more books then I can count on christianity and all religions. And many are penned by devout christians (Id have to say the bible is hardly anti christian propoganda and I got that somewhere here...).

Very few things fascinate me more then trying to understand grand concepts like religion. So Ive learned as much as I can. And whether Im looking at zoroastrianism or zulu beauty spirits or the very hight of layered formal christian dogma it all seems to come down to how the HUMAN mind works. thats the fundamental constant. Not the divine. So for me i remain agnostic because what i LEARN about the world and about humanity's approach to religion tells me theres a ceiling in religion that can be quite easily observed when you stand back from it. But yet I wouldnt be surprised if there was something to it as well. I just dont think its the super specific ideas and rules of any one SPECIFIC religion really.

[Orli17]

how exactly will you know WHO you are when you are born again? And how will you know if you ARE born again? i'm confused by that already.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
when i say "we'll never know", i mean about the existence of god, or whether or not a certain scripture is or isn't the word of this god... i'm completely open as far as ideas go

So am I - and I think Christianity is the most logical. You have a different opinion

i look at ideas from all kinds of religious beliefs, not just one or a few... i see which seem to make sense (i.e. treating those as you would be treated) and which don't seem to not make sense (i.e. insisting that a preacher must remain celibate)... i can pick and choose and am not tied to any one issue due to scripture

Oh, I know I"m not gonna be real clear here because I'm tired, but I'll give it a first cut ...

The Bible hangs together as a whole. I think there are 3 ways to look at it - after examination and thought, you either (1) believe it to be God's revelation to mankind, or (2) don't believe it to be God's revelation to mankind, or (3) believe parts of it to God's revelation to mankind. But really, #3 has the same result as #2 - basically, you just do what YOU think is right, based upon no authority but YOURSELF.

Now if you believed #1, you would ALSO do what YOU think is right, which basically is probably 95% of what is in the Bible, and because you have thought about the issue, you can trust that a higher authority/wisdom is correct in those FEW areas that you don't quite agree with whole-heartedly. And when you do this with one thing, and see that it WAS indeed right, it is logical to continue to do so. It's my "loving professor" analogy - it is both logical and reasonable to take a few things "on trust" from a professor that has always been right before and has always demonstrated kindness and care for you. It's the same way with God - it is MORE logical, based on past experience and thought, in those FEW areas where you might not understand, to take things "on trust", IMO.

Now if more than about 5% of Christianity went against my heart and mind, then I would consider changing my opinion about it. But it has proven itself more solid as I go along - a more accurate reflection of what I see around me, and it stands up to logical analysis, too.

you say: "use your senses, use your brain, give it some time, and make a decision about your beliefs, then ACT on your beliefs for what you believe to be right and good. Make a difference with your life!"

to which i say... that's what i do, i just don't put the god part behind it

You go with what you think is right, brownie! And let's keep up the good discussions! I like you

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh damn i missed "attack the agnostics" day.

I was NOT attacking agnostics, IRex I was stating a problem that I have with some typical agnostic opinions, which I would like to discuss with anyone that wants to. Brownie apparently did not take offense - I wish you wouldn't, either. You've brought up some problems you have with the Christian viewpoint, why can't I bring up some problems I have with the agnostic viewpoint? I'm arguing with the viewpoint, NOT attacking the person. I try to not take offense when you use insulting terms about Christians, which you often have - I try to deal with the underlying point. Please re-read my posts and think about the points and then dive in with your thoughts

good thing bj caught up to that "agnostics are all cop outs" statement before I did let me tell you...

And brownie dealt with it by discussing it.

And if you're going to use quotation marks when referring to my post, then please quote me correctly - I did NOT say "agnostics are all cop outs".

I'll wait until tomorrow to deal with the rest of your post - hopefully you'll recall our friendship and realize that I was NOT attacking you. However, I see difficulties with your position, which is an entirely different thing, and I'm open to discussing it.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So for me i remain agnostic because what i LEARN about the world and about humanity's approach to religion tells me theres a ceiling in religion that can be quite easily observed when you stand back from it. But yet I wouldnt be surprised if there was something to it as well. I just dont think its the super specific ideas and rules of any one SPECIFIC religion really.

When looking at all religions from outside of them, I can easily see it would be difficult to pick one as accurate. I frankly don't know how I'd do it.

[Lalaith_Elf]

Okay, I was asked by someone the otherday a question, which I found extreamly interesting and which to this day I haven't been able to answer - namely because of my lack of knowledge towards the Bible. But say that there was a Christian God, and Heaven and Hell were real and the Bible was real. All the images of a perfect Christian belief, were real. What would happen when someone like myself, who follows another religion, dies? Would I go to Heaven? Or just plunge into the firery depths of Hell? This guy never really seemed to be able to grasp that I wasn't scared or anything. Could any of you provide a answer?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well when i say "academic" i dont necessarily mean the strictly ivory tower dictations of ivy league liberal minds. I mean a more general approach to learning all I can about various religions. I have more books then I can count on christianity and all religions. And many are penned by devout christians (Id have to say the bible is hardly anti christian propoganda and I got that somewhere here...).

Very few things fascinate me more then trying to understand grand concepts like religion. So Ive learned as much as I can. And whether Im looking at zoroastrianism or zulu beauty spirits or the very hight of layered formal christian dogma it all seems to come down to how the HUMAN mind works. thats the fundamental constant. Not the divine. So for me i remain agnostic because what i LEARN about the world and about humanity's approach to religion tells me theres a ceiling in religion that can be quite easily observed when you stand back from it. But yet I wouldnt be surprised if there was something to it as well. I just dont think its the super specific ideas and rules of any one SPECIFIC religion really.

(OK, AMC has been playing 'Wrath of Khan' several times in the past week!):

So... just as Kirk had never faced his 'no win' situation, YOU have not really faced the 'quest for ultimate spiritual truth' situation?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
It's my "loving professor" analogy - it is both logical and reasonable to take a few things "on trust" from a professor that has always been right before and has always demonstrated kindness and care for you. It's the same way with God - it is MORE logical, based on past experience and thought, in those FEW areas where you might not understand, to take things "on trust", IMO.

i do see your pov... but in mine, there is no need to take anything "on trust"... i find that if one thinks about them enough, all moral questions can be answered in the here and now, without divine inspiration

You go with what you think is right, brownie! And let's keep up the good discussions! I like you

i like you too

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
So... just as Kirk had never faced his 'no win' situation, YOU have not really faced the 'quest for ultimate spiritual truth' situation?

i won't speak for IR, but i believe that i have, and i have found it within myself

btw, i watched that the other night too

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lalaith_Elf
Okay, I was asked by someone the otherday a question, which I found extreamly interesting and which to this day I haven't been able to answer - namely because of my lack of knowledge towards the Bible. But say that there was a Christian God, and Heaven and Hell were real and the Bible was real. All the images of a perfect Christian belief, were real. What would happen when someone like myself, who follows another religion, dies? Would I go to Heaven? Or just plunge into the firery depths of Hell? This guy never really seemed to be able to grasp that I wasn't scared or anything. Could any of you provide a answer?

You're asking the queen of long boring posts if she has an answer? (well, you said "any of you", and that includes me!)

I've posted some answers on this topic before, so I dredged up a few. (do a search with my name, and "hell" and "choice"). I'll list the links for you. Let me know if you still have questions after reading them I hope it helps. I believe it to be the Biblically-supported Christian position on the topic, to the best of my understanding.

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[Valandil]

Originally posted by Valandil
I think that's completely ON the subject. Yes, I'll be happy to explain it. I can't at the moment, but either late tonight - or more likely, tomorrow morning, I will (you can look for it within 12 hours just about for sure).

Nurvi - sorry... I'm late with this explanation of the term 'born again'... will try to get it up here soon though - and will PM you when I do.

[Lalaith_Elf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You're asking the queen of long boring posts if she has an answer? (well, you said "any of you", and that includes me!)

I've posted some answers on this topic before, so I dredged up a few. (do a search with my name, and "hell" and "choice"). I'll list the links for you. Let me know if you still have questions after reading them I hope it helps. I believe it to be the Biblically-supported Christian position on the topic, to the best of my understanding.

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Okay thanks. I've only read a few at the moment. But I'm starting to understand.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Valandil
So... just as Kirk had never faced his 'no win' situation, YOU have not really faced the 'quest for ultimate spiritual truth' situation?

you mean like radically harsh life situations? deaths? sicknesses? stuff like that? or did you have something specific in mind?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
you mean like radically harsh life situations? deaths? sicknesses? stuff like that? or did you have something specific in mind?

maybe he means that you've never had to stand toe to toe with the klingons while the future of the entire federation hangs in balance

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
you mean like radically harsh life situations? deaths? sicknesses? stuff like that? or did you have something specific in mind?

brownjenkins is close to the mark, since it was partly tongue in cheek. But for the other part (being a bit more serious)... do YOU have your own notions about a Creator, about this creator's level of involvement in his creation, about life after death, about moral absolutes? Or... are these things something you think about at all?

(EDIT: and/or - were you raised with any particular beliefs in those regards... and if so, to what extent do you still adhere to them - or what do you otherwise think of them?)

[Insidious Rex]

oh boy... I feel an essay coming on... stand by...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Valandil
do YOU have your own notions about a Creator, about this creator's level of involvement in his creation, about life after death, about moral absolutes? Or... are these things something you think about at all?

A CREATOR: The figurative jury is out. Im basically an evidence guy so the idea of an invisible divine force that we accept by faith alone doesn’t work on me. I do NOT, however, believe like atheists that there IS NO god or creator force. I just believe what I can detect through my senses and/or through mathematics. Everything else is speculation and/or superstition (or perhaps a better way to put it is “unproven�).

This “belief� system does not, however, eliminate me from studying all aspects of humanity’s approach to the divine. I find it most interesting in the extreme. I have a burning need to understand it all. I love to speculate about what the divine could be based on what I observe through history, through studying various religions and through studying the human mind.

And in the end what we have isn’t quite good enough yet. The pot cannot hold itself can it? But perhaps our brains just cant conceptualize the notion that it in fact can…

*trippy music *

INVOLVEMENT: Well obviously if Im not yet on the creator band wagon then the involvement bandwagon is out of reach as well. But I can speculate here too!

I find it dubious at best to suppose there is a human like god who created this vast expanse of time and space, speckling it with uncounted trillions of galaxies and yet had OUR miserable rears in mind as his highest most precious pets (or children) and is extremely concerned with exactly what we eat and who marries who and what we do in our bedrooms, etc. That is just patently absurd to me and truly I lump it in there with flat earths and earth centered galaxies and much worse nonsense. But if you begin with the notion that there IS (was?) a creative force originally then Im pretty sure its not anything we could comprehend with our approach to reality so we cant really translate directly the notion of involvement at all. The answer could be yes and no. or neither. Suffice it to say it probably doesn’t matter. It will probably be forever beyond our perception to detect the flavor of involvement of any creator force in the universe. Now this doesn’t mean that there cant be much more advanced entities who have stumbled on ways to effect things in our universe for their own purposes…

*spooky music *

LIFE AFTER DEATH: no idea. Guess we will have to wait and see. You would think this would somehow be measurable though if true. Energy is energy no matter what form it takes. Can life force be measured? I firmly believe everything in the universe is all a part of the same whole if you will. That the universe is one big churning chemical reaction and that we mistake ourselves as wholly independent beings different from anything else when in fact we are made up of the very same things that is in everything else and we will very shortly return to that same churning mass. I take a little comfort in that in fact. I don’t like feeling too special. I like the idea that im part of the same stuff as the rest of the world. As the highest mountains and deepest reaches of the sea. And of every star in the universe. What grand solidarity!! But as to “life� after death I don’t see it in the Christian (or standard religious) sense. I do see it in the strictly physical sense though. My DNA will continue on. My memory will etch itself into the pattern of the universe through others forever. And my atoms will be used over and over and over again in other manifestations of this chemical reaction.

MORAL ABSOLUTES: Well I have my own morals as anybody else would. From my upbringing. From the society I have lived in. from my overt observation and processing of reality (mostly human reality in this case) and from my genes which give me the range of what my behavior will be. Im sure to some people (to many people in fact) some of my morals might seem loathsome. I wont go into any sordid details thanks… But to those same people some of my other morals may seem worthy of high praise. I have no problem sacrificing myself for someone else. So Im truly a mixed bag morally. Sure I believe certain things are “wrong� but I believe everything has a context. So you can kill in this situation but you really shouldn’t kill in this situation. That kind of thing.

(EDIT: and/or - were you raised with any particular beliefs in those regards... and if so, to what extent do you still adhere to them - or what do you otherwise think of them?)

I was raised in a middle class suburban household in which my mom was a regular church going protestant and my dad wasn’t. I went to Sunday school and church most of my youth, even went to some church summer camp and things like that (they used to set up the best water fights ever!). But it was more an activity then it was a way of believing to me. I never really got the whole idea of it. The pieces didn’t seem to make sense as a cohesive whole and it seemed like everyone accepted something and never questioned it. So by the time I was about 10 or 11 I was pretty much of the opinion that Christianity didn’t really have anything to offer me. It seemed one part people going through the motions and one part goofy hard core jesus people who were REALLY into it and who put me off with their intensity and their cultishness. They acted as if they were in on some inside joke or secret that I didn’t get. And were trying to push me to understand something quite obvious to them that just didn’t add up for me. At first I thought I was just blind to it. After a while I began to realize they were just seeing something all by themselves and it wasn’t just problems with my senses. So I shrugged and moved on.

Let me conclude by saying I think a church system can be a great thing for human beings living in a communal setting (as we tend to do). But I see the social benefits as the main strengths of course. I wouldn’t mind going to one of those church pancake breakfasts I see on the local church signs one of these days and hanging out with people and chatting but I would worry I would give them the wrong idea. And that theyd torment me about all the god stuff. And I would probably freak them out anyway. So I make my pancakes at home by myself.