06-14-2003, 12:42 AM | #1041 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Rian, I assume you're going to quote some bits from Morris' book; I look forward to them.
Morris is supposed to be a impartial scientist, but I just found a quote of his: Quote:
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
|
06-14-2003, 02:45 AM | #1042 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK, I'm ready to tackle the evolution thread! I think I'll work most-recent to oldest for today's posts.
cassiopeia - I see what your concern is, and I'll address it last, because the points I'll bring up first will bear on it. 1 - I think Morris' statement (where is it, BTW?) is not relevant to this thread, because it's not a scientific statement. I'm going to present some scientific evidence (note - evidence, not proof - same as for evolution - there's no proof, just evidence) for creationism, and the evolutionist people here have said they would consider it (and I assume they mean in a scientific, impartial manner). I hope they will keep their word. 2 - Please note his phrase "final and conclusive evidence" - now I haven't read the whole book cover-to-cover in order, but I have pretty much read the whole book. And as far as the scientific evidence, I don't see him asking people to accept it "because God said it was that way". I see him presenting scientific evidence carefully and impartially and logically. And he presents a heckuva lot of evidence, IMO! And as a Christian who believes in the Bible, the final capstone (although out of the realm of science) would be the Bible, and I guess that's why he mentions it. Note the use of the word FINAL - it means the last in a long line of evidence. Now as a non-Christian, you don't need to evaluate this bit of info, because you don't believe it to be true. And again, I hope you will be willing to impartially evaluate the other evidence he presents, because that's what science is about. 3 - I would guess your major objection is that Morris has his mind already made up about the matter, and is twisting the data to reflect his preconceived notions; is that right? Now wouldn't you say that evolutionists also have their minds made up? They're willling to change the mechanisms, but not the guts of the theory (macroevolution), because they believe it, beforehand, to be true, and they believe it without any direct scientific proof whatsoever! No one has EVER seen macroevolution in the lab, have they? They believe it to be a LOGICAL INFERENCE, just like Morris' beliefs in Christianity. And many evolutionists have also said they don't believe in God, either. All we can do, since we can't read the minds of the scientists, is to hope that neither the creationists nor the evolutionists are twisting the data around to fit their already-held beliefs, and do our best to honestly evaluate the data that we see. I hope they can operate with scientific integrity. I believe that Morris does, from what I can tell.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-14-2003, 03:07 AM | #1043 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
06-14-2003, 03:11 AM | #1044 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
(continuing back thru the thread)
Hobbit -
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-14-2003, 03:17 AM | #1045 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Draken - *nothing to reply to, as there is nothing scientific, intelligent, or interesting in his post, IMO. In addition, it's unkind. *
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-14-2003 at 03:23 AM. |
06-14-2003, 03:22 AM | #1046 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
*continuing back*
GrayMouser - well worth replying to, since he is kind, intelligent and thoughtful. To save time, I'll skip over the first part of the post and go to the last part: Quote:
Does anyone else wish to offer an opinion on these defs?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-14-2003 at 03:25 AM. |
|
06-14-2003, 03:49 AM | #1047 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
GrayMouser again ....
Quote:
And I think that I can show that it was NOT taken out of context, by quoting further from the Morris/Parker book. The context that they gave that quote was in a section talking about adaptations requiring several traits all depending upon one another, and the difficulties that it posed for evolutionists. Here is the text immediately preceding the quote: Quote:
I suppose I should have been more careful when I quoted that section, but it was really just a casual post made in reaction to Lizra's talk about her eyes, and made in the same casual mood as her post was. And BTW, I really think it's misleading to say "a Creationist practise", because that implies that evolutionists never do it. Do you think that's true? I certainly don't. Quote:
I checked out your second link and it looks well worth reading - I'll take a look at the others, too.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-14-2003 at 03:51 AM. |
|||
06-14-2003, 03:55 AM | #1048 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
*continuing back*
Cirdan - Well, it's now 1 am, and A-E may see me as tenacious, but now I'm just .... tired. But it's been interesting and enjoyable, because (with a minor exception) it's been a polite and intelligent discussion, IMO. I'll have to get to your posts tomorrow - uh, later today
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-14-2003, 09:29 PM | #1049 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|
06-15-2003, 01:14 AM | #1050 | |||
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Quote:
I think it is relevent, because he seems to think, no matter what, that the Bible is right. Scientists, I would hope, are willing to change thier beliefs, given the evidence. Morris seems to have made up him mind; it also to me implies that he would pick the evidence that suits his theory, and throw away the evidence that contradicts it. Quote:
Quote:
I don't think it matters if scientists believe in God or not. They should leave thier beliefs at the door (I think somebody has already said that.) Anyway, I don't think that evolution rules out a God, just that he didn't directly create all the animals in the world. I can almost see a God who made up all the laws so we could be here. But those aren't matters of science.
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
|||
06-15-2003, 01:22 AM | #1051 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK - 10pm and all is well so time for a little 'Mooting!
And to finish from last night - Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
06-15-2003, 01:28 AM | #1052 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
ps - I checked back in the thread, and it didn't say "conclusions" (your word), it said: "would have recognized them immediately as products of creation".
You're perhaps putting a stronger reading on "recognized" than I am. I think that if scientists discovered a well-shaped arrowhead on Mars, their first thought would immediately be that it was "made", don't you? Now a conclusion at this point would be premature, IMO, but I DO think that in that scenario, a hypothesis of "created" would be the most logical one. Do you? Anyone else?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-15-2003, 02:01 AM | #1053 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
I do.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-15-2003, 02:12 AM | #1054 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
And this indicates that there ARE signatures of intelligence, acc'd to Sagan's narrator: Quote:
Quote:
And I think we're using "inference" in slightly different ways. I think you're thinking of it in a conclusion sense, and I"m thinking of it in a premise sense. But enough of this - it is, after all, a work of fiction, altho a very good one, IMO! Have you read it? And what do you think of what I said here?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
06-15-2003, 02:14 AM | #1055 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
06-15-2003, 02:16 AM | #1056 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
-takes a bow-
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-15-2003, 02:28 AM | #1057 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I agree But I think creationism explains the data better (your interpretation is evolution; mine is creationism). OK I'm not sure what you're including in "those", so I won't worry about it. Instead, I'll start - in the very next post - to present data! Yay! Go me!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||||||
06-15-2003, 02:33 AM | #1058 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Carl Sagan was a a member of the board of directors of SETI, so I would imagine he felt very strong of the validity of searching for extraterrestrial life. I see 'Contact' as a book that voices his views fairly strongly via Ellie's. (And I managed to buy it last week for only $5, so now I have it handy to reference.)
Quote:
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
|
06-15-2003, 02:38 AM | #1059 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Oh well, my husband just got home from the movies (a guy movie he saw with my bro-in-law) and he says to tell you guys that it's his turn now , so .... later!
(and I was SOOOOOO close to starting! Oh well, it will prob. be Monday now, because tomorrow's Father's day.) I'll just say I'm starting with fossils, and I like how Parker words this: Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-15-2003 at 02:40 AM. |
|
06-15-2003, 03:18 AM | #1060 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
I just read some samples from that book rian, and well.... it is my opinion that Morris is an idiot, no offense. The first few pages are examples of quote mining at its finest. He also basically says "no one has ever seen evolution happen therfore it does not exist." He also says that rocks are dated by their fossils - not so. He also says some other really stupid things - like evolution is some mystery with absolutely no fossil evidence supporting it. It doesn't seem like this guy has any basic knowledge of evolution - or anything really
Here is a link to the sample first 7 or so pages: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...er#reader-link maybe ill get the book so i can make fun of this guy some more. :P Maybe this guy makes some real points as the book goes on?
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Evidence for Evolution | jerseydevil | General Messages | 599 | 05-18-2008 02:43 PM |
Catholic Schools Ban Charity | Last Child of Ungoliant | General Messages | 29 | 03-15-2005 04:58 PM |
Evidence for Creationism and Against Evolution | RÃan | General Messages | 1149 | 08-16-2004 06:07 PM |
A discussion about Evolution and other scientific theories | Elvellon | General Messages | 1 | 04-11-2002 01:23 PM |
Evolution | IronParrot | Entertainment Forum | 1 | 06-19-2001 03:22 AM |