05-02-2002, 02:08 PM | #1041 | |||
The Insufferable
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But hey. that's just subjective. ]: ) Anywho... Now that you've established the fact that everything is subjective and it's impossible to be sure that we really know anything-fine. I'll buy that. Humans are subjective, etc, etc. However, you (we) obviously accept some ideas as better than others. Quote:
Now, this comes down to what I've been getting at all along. I'm not interested in proving that God exists. After all, how does one prove anything? What I have (and still am) trying to point out is that the concept of God is more rational than the concept of a naturalistic, self existant universe. Incidentally, once either one of these concepts has been proven or discredited, agnosticism becomes illogical. It is foolish to waver between two choices when one is obviously better or worse than the other. I'm done enough reiteration on the causal arguement. Arguments can also be made from order, life, thought, energy, and a number of other simple things. I'll grant that there are a number of conflicts regarding the nature of the ultimate diety, but can anyone rationally believe that there isn't one? I'll use a metaphor. Feel free to skip this next two paragraphs if you don't like them. Blackheart brought up the ideas that we might not exist, and you are actually imagining all of this. And yes, it could be true. But can anyone reasonably go around thinking that you're the only person in existance, and that you are simply imagining the universe? Hardly. Likewise, there might not be a God, and the universe might be a product of some ripple in omnispace. But there are a number of factors that disagree. And so it's not that reasonable to believe it. We can qualify this. Most humans practice day-to-day naturalism. We assume that, for the most part, what happens around us is not the result of divine intervention. That's logical, right? And it works for everybody, regardless of beliefs. But that's really not grounds for saying that divine intevention doesn't occur, or that there is no diety who could intervene. (metaphor) We also assume on a daily basis that, for example, al quaeda is not behind a recent car crash, or house fire, or the fact that your refrigeration isn't working. But we don't go from there to thinking that al quaeda could never do anything like that, or that al quaeda doesn't exist. Indeed, if someone did that we would most likely laugh at them. It's possible, of course. One could say equally so-but it's not as reasonable. (/metaphor) So let me repeat myself: we accept that we'll never know everything for certain. But we also accept that some ideas are more reasonable than others. And I, formerly an athiestic nihilist, could not and cannot get over the fact that any way you slice it, the metaphysic of a creator God makes far more sense than that of a self existant universe. And so, as much as I sometimes wish otherwise, I'm stuck with that.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 05-02-2002 at 02:30 PM. |
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05-02-2002, 02:32 PM | #1042 | |
Elf Lord
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Everything else is close enough for government work....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 02:47 PM | #1043 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-02-2002, 02:49 PM | #1044 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-02-2002, 02:57 PM | #1045 |
The Insufferable
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I subjectively believe it to be the objective truth. You'll have to draw your own conclusions from the objective fact that the information reaching your brain makes it appear that you are reading this, although subjectively none of us might exist.
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05-02-2002, 02:58 PM | #1046 | |
the Shrike
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*Falls on the floor convulsing and twitching.* No, but really, .... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.... *Waves atheist flag in surrender.* Now wayfarer, I think the idea is that perception is subjective, however, the the sets of data being perceived can be measured objectively (even if the perception of those measurements is subjective). It's only when you try to pervert the data, if you will, into a model, which brains like, that it gets converted to subjective reasoning. Now, the difference between science and theology, is that at least science starts out with good intentions... theologists aren't even trying to be objective.... There that's my subjective b/s for the day. Now, where was I? Oh that's right.... .... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... *GASP* .... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-02-2002 at 03:03 PM. |
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05-02-2002, 02:58 PM | #1047 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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If your perceptions are subjective, then the information you use to make the decision is also subject to bias, and therefore you must relegate any "rational" decision you arrive at regarding metaphysical cocepts to the "best guess" bin also. Quote:
Some people like to say yes because it suits thier personal philosopy, some choose no. Some say I don't know. Quote:
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Change the metaphor however to something like the Illuminati and suddenly it becomes closer to the situation. Perhaps the Illuminati do exist. perhaps they do casue things to happen. But that's two suppositions stacked on top of each other, instead of a single supposition, as in your metaphor. Quote:
If however you mean that other interpretations of the problem are nonsensical, and therefore invalid, then I'm afraid you're going to have to go round and round about that one.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 03:04 PM | #1048 | ||
Elf Lord
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The primary concern of a governing body is to ensure that it stays in power. If it does aggregate power it is to fulfil this function. The longevity of a power structure only applies to the success of the particular methods, not it's goals.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 03:11 PM | #1049 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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05-02-2002, 03:16 PM | #1050 |
Elf Lord
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What? BAh! you mean I wasted my time rebutting a quote?!?!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-02-2002, 03:23 PM | #1051 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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as a matter of fact a woman was killed in Jordon in because she did'nt bleed on here wedding night. Never thought about her having a flexible hymen. or another was killed because a jealous step daughter told her father that his future bride was talking to another man
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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05-02-2002, 03:25 PM | #1052 |
Hoplite Nomad
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you can rebutte this one
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-02-2002, 03:25 PM | #1053 |
Elf Lord
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Those aren't decisions about human conditions are they?
Those are actions, and they stem from a perception of fear. If anything, they are actions based on decisions made WITHOUT taking feelings and emotions into consideration. Done already, and fixed my stupid spelling
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 05-02-2002 at 03:27 PM. |
05-02-2002, 03:33 PM | #1054 |
Hoplite Nomad
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i'll answer later i'm tired
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-02-2002, 03:38 PM | #1055 |
Hoplite Nomad
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One last sleepy thought
WAYFARER THINK CHRISTIAN GOD YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING ABOUT A CHRISTIAN GOD
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-02-2002, 03:46 PM | #1056 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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they're human and those are feelings about their condition and the condition of their women
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 05-02-2002 at 03:48 PM. |
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05-02-2002, 04:00 PM | #1057 | |
Elf Lord
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*Dr. Smith voice* oh the pain.. the pain...!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 04:37 PM | #1058 | |||||
The Insufferable
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However, when it comes to the sensory gap, I see things differently. I agree that there's a lack of evidence for any metaphysical concepts whatsoever. But I think that there will be some day. For example, when I die, I'll know for certain (or not know at all, but there will be none of this thinking it through and picking the best option). And so I place my faith in the one metaphysic which seems the most reasonable and likely to by true. Quote:
In any case, it would be unreasonable of me to tell you that you don't exist. I can't be sure of it, and you can't be sure that I exist. But regardless of that, we can both be fairly certain that we exist, and since we are both sure that we are real, it's not difficult to assume that others might be real as well. That said, I knew that you, personally, were not espousing that particular metaphysic. It was simply a convenient example. Quote:
I.E. We 'know' that things with beginnings must have causes, that energy moves from usable to unusable states, that life comes from life, and that order comes from order. We have feelings and inclinations regarding good and evil, justice, love and the like. Now, how do we relate that to philosophical naturalism, which in effect says that life came from non-life, order came from chaos, we hold to morality even though we are not moral creatures, and so on. And so, based on the little we do know, we can say that philosophic naturalism is fatally flawed. Quote:
When I make that same sort of comparison with the universe at large, I find that it's far closer to what I should expect if there was an intelligent designer than if there was not. Quote:
Of those other metaphysical systems which I have examined, very few were completely nonsensical, but none has even approached the coherence of christianity.
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05-02-2002, 05:02 PM | #1059 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Altruism might be a heritable trait, but ethical and moral behavior are developed from childhood. If it were not so, then children would need no discipline, they could turn themselves into "model citizens". Quote:
However, there is still difficulty with interpreting the current observations to mean that humans are "hardwired" to do so. The alternate explination is that it is a distortion in the normal perception of self identity. Which is quite a different matter. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 05-02-2002 at 05:10 PM. |
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05-02-2002, 08:33 PM | #1060 |
The Insufferable
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What I mean by coherence is I was having trouble coming up with the correct adjective, and didn't want to retreat to 'best' or 'surperior' or something else vague like that. ]: )
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