Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ah, forgot to mention. If you've read my posts, you would know that I have experienced religion for most of my life. And I do understand it, that's why I have become an atheist.

You've been a Christian. Many Entmooters have been Catholics in the past. But if you knew the truth about the born again experience, you would not mock it. Being a Christian is not congruent with being born again. This was proved multiple times by the Pharisees, the great spiritual leaders of Jesus' time.

You have not experienced the miraculous power of God, so how can you claim to understand it? All you understand is its nonexistence, based upon your own lack of experiencing it.

Because you do not understand that experience, I readily forgive your mocking it. I've heard other Atheists on Entmoot mock it before. But when I'm speaking of spiritual experiences as I have, and say that my own and those of many other Christians aren't far from what is described in the Bible, you plainly have not experienced that. Therefore, I am right in saying that you mock what you do not understand and have not experienced.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ironparrot
I'm completely new to this thread so I haven't read through all of it, but I have a question for the resident Christians (which may or may not have been answered):

Even if God does exist in the form that you posit, how would we know that the Holy Bible is word for word the Official Word of God? Okay, because God said so. But where did He say so? The Bible, right? So isn't that circular logic? (I'm probably missing something important and obvious here, so please point it out.)

As for my personal beliefs: I have no beef with religion, but I do have a beef with two very major things:

a) When religion attaches itself to matters of state and governance;

b) When the Bible is somehow "protected" from the same deconstructionist, historiographical analysis to which every other written document is subject.

Sorry for taking so long in responding to this, Ironparrot. I started responding to it yesterday, when I described something of the spiritual born again experiences and began to prove that the Bible is far from an ordinary book.

[Ruinel]

*big obvious sigh*
First of all, I was saying that it was a book written by Man, not a deity. It is therefore, not the word of a god.

Second, you were disagreeing with me, saying that the bible was the word of a god.

Therefore, I got the impression that you were going to prove that you were right. Instead, you have chosen not to prove that the bible is the word of a deity and let me be correct. Thanks. My mistake.

[Lief Erikson]

Survival through Persecution
The Bible has withstood vicious attacks of its enemies as no other book. Many have tried to burn it, ban it and "outlaw it from the days of Roman emperors to present-day Communist dominated countries."

Sidney Collett in All About the Bible says, "Voltaire, the noted French infidel who died in 1778, said that in one hundred years from his time Christianity would be swept from existence and passed into history. But what has happened? Voltaire has passed into history; while the circulation of the Bible ccontinues to increase in almost all parts of the world, carrying blessing wherever it goes. For example the English Cathedral in Zanzibar is built on the site of the Old Slave Market, and the Communion Table stands on the very spot where the whipping-post once stood! The world abounds with such instances . . . As one has truly said, 'We might as well put our shoulder to the burning wheel of the sun, and try to stop it on its flaming course, as attempt to stop the circulation of the Bible.'"

Concerning the boast of Voltaire on the extinction of Christianity and the Bible in 100 years, Geisler and Nix point out that "only fifty years after his death the Geneva Bible Society used his press and house to produce stacks of Bibles." WHAT AN IRONY OF HISTORY!a

In A.D. 303, Diocletian issued an edict (Cambridge History of the Bible, Cambridge University Press, 1963), to destroy Christians and their sacred book: " . . . an imperial letter was everywhere promulgated, ordering the razing of the churches to the ground and the destruction by fire of the Scriptures, and proclaiming that those who held high positions would lose all civil rights, while those in households, if they persisted in their profession of Christianity, would be deprived of their liberty."

The historic irony of the above edict to destroy the Bible is that Constantine, the emperor following Diocletian, 25 years later commissioned Eusebius to prepare 50 copies of the Scripture at the expense of the government.

The Bible is unique in its survival. This does not prove the Bible is true. No, but it does prove it stands alone among books. A student seeking truth ought to consider a book that has the above unique qualifications.

I have a few things to add to his. Firstly, the fact that the Church survived and thrived despite terrible persecution from Jewish authorities in its earliest days. All but one of the twelve disciples were martyred. However, despite all the fierce early resistance and the doom that faced the church, it thrived. Even one of its bitterest enemies turned to its greatest asset, Paul.

But his turning to Christ is not a unique event. Throughout history, people have attempted to disprove Christianity and become Christians instead.

[HOBBIT]

edit: i see no point in what you are posting. you aren't accomplishing anything. just prove that the bible is the word of god, if you can (which you obviously can't, because if anyone could there would be no athiests).

[Ruinel]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
bla bla bla...you would not mock it. ...bla...bla...bla...

.... more bull crap....All you understand is its nonexistence, based upon your own lack of experiencing it.

Because you do not understand that experience..... I've heard other Atheists on Entmoot mock it before. ..lots more crap about the bible here.... Therefore, I am right in saying that you mock what you do not understand and have not experienced. [/QUOTE]
L.E.... you poor, ignorant fool.... You think that I am mocking you? Wow... let me tell you something... you don't know me very well. I am being quite restrained right now. If I were to outright mock you. You would be crying in a heap on the floor, with soiled pants, by your computer right now, sobbing and begging for mercy. Do NOT in any way mistake those previous posts for mockery, just because I do not agree with your views and because I have posted information which questions your beliefs. What I post is fact, not fiction, buddy.

Now I'll tell you, I do understand something about religion. I understand that it has been used for thousands of years to keep some people down and some people up. It has been used to keep an elite population in power and to justify horrific acts of violence against individuals.

It is amazing how the churches all tell their parishioners how much they need money. Please give to the poor, please give for this needy cause, and that needy cause. And then you show up and there's another statue to all the aborted fetuses. Or some new addition is being built for the church. Or something else they had to buy to make their own lives a little better, not the poor. Or something else that has nothing to do with helping people in their misery.

And you have the balls to tell me I have no understanding of Christianity?!!! I have plenty of understanding!!! And NO! There isn't any supernatural being!!! I believe in fact, not fairy tales.

So, no one is mocking you, yet! Although, that can be arranged if you so desire it. Get your head out of your bible and pay attention!!!

[Lief Erikson]

Survival through Criticism
H.L. Hastings, cited by John W. Lea, has forcibly illustrated the unique way the Bible has withstood the attacks of infidelity and skepticism:

"Infidels for eighteen hundred years have been refuting and overthrowing this book, and yet it stands today as solid as a rock. Its circulation increases, and it is more loved and cherished and read today than ever before. Infidels, with all their assaults, make about as much impression on this book as a man with a tack hammer would on the Pyramids of Egypt. When the French monarch proposes the persecution of the Christians in his dominion, an old statesman and warrior said to him, 'Sire, the Church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.' So the hammers of the infidels have been pecking away at this book for ages, but the hammers are worn out, and the anvil still endures. If this book had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago. Emperors and popes, kings and priests, princes and rulers have all tried their hand at it; they die and the book still lives."

The phrase used to be "the assured results of higher criticism" but now the higher critics are falling by the wayside. Take, for example, the "Documentary Hypothesis." The basis for its development was that the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses because the "assured results of higher criticism" have proved that writing was not in existence at the time of Moses. Therefore it is obvious that it had to be of later authorship. The minds of critics went to work: J, E, P, D writers put it all together. They went as far as to divide one verse into three authorships. They built great structures of criticisms.

But then, some fellows discovered the "black stele." It had wedgeshaped characters on it and contained the detailed laws of Hammurabi. Was it post'Moses? No! It was pre-Mosaic; not only that, but it was pre-Abraham (2,000 B.C.). It preceded Moses' writings by at least three centuries. Amazing, it antedated Moses who was supposed to be a primitive man without an alphabet.

The "assured results of higher criticism" said there were no Hittites (a people found at the time only in the Old Testament); there are no other records of them. They must be myth. Well, wrong again. As the result of archaeology, there are now hundreds of references overlapping more than 1200 years of Hittite civilization.

Earl Radmacher, president of Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, quoting Nelson Glueck (pronounced Glek), former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati and one of the three greatest archaeologists, says:

"I listend to him[Glueck] when he was at Temple Emmanuel in Dallas, and he got rather red in the face and said, 'I've been accused of teaching the verbal, plenary inspiration of the scripture. I want it to be understood that I have never taught this. All I have ever said si that all of my archaeological investigation I have never found one artifact of antiquity that contradicts any statement of the Word of God."

The Bible is unique in facing its critics. There is no book in all of history like it. A person looking for truth would certainly consider a book that has the above qualifications.

There is more that has to be gone into on this particular topic, I'm well aware. Like the evidence for pre-Solomon events of the Old Testament.

I will continue on further evidences later. If anyone wants more in depth analysis of the Old Testament, I'm willing to give it.

[Ruinel]

Exactly what is all this crap you are posting, L.E.? What is the purpose of it?

[HOBBIT]

LE, please read my above post.......


what are you posting now only interests you. sorry, but no one really cares about all that.


post the proof tha the bible is the word of god, or stop posting those pointless quotes...im sure no one is reading them.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Ditto!

A lot of states seem to have no trouble murdering 16 yr old kids either

Bleedin' barbaric *shakes head*

Well really - you don't live here - so you don't really understand it. If you knew what it TOOK for someone to be executed here - you wouldn't be so damn judgemental.

Yes - a person can get the death penalty in some states at the age of 16 - but no one has in a VERY long time. Also- if they did - it would through appeal after appeal - that they wouldn't be executed until they were in their 30's or later. The 17 year old sniper is up for the death penalty - and he just may get it.

If you lived here and voted - then you have a say in how our laws work. But WE, the citizens of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, support this.

[Elven Archer]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
what are you posting now only interests you. sorry, but no one really cares about all that.

not true. It interests me and i believe GW said he was interested as well.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well really - you don't live here - so you don't really understand it. If you knew what it TOOK for someone to be executed here - you wouldn't be so damn judgemental.

Yes - a person can get the death penalty in some states at the age of 16 - but no one has in a VERY long time. Also- if they did - it would through appeal after appeal - that they wouldn't be executed until they were in their 30's or later. The 17 year old sniper is up for the death penalty - and he just may get it.

If you lived here and voted - then you have a say in how our laws work. But WE, the citizens of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, support this.

Good for you.........if you're happy with telling a sixteen year old kid that someone is going to put a rope around his neck and either use that rope to break his neck or wait until he suffocates as the rope is slowly tightened under his own bodyweight and he dies of asphyxiation, more power to you.

[HOBBIT]

no, actually you all said that you would be interested to see his "proof that the bible is the word of god," as would I. If that "crap" (in runiel's words) interests you, then ok I guess I was wrong

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
A lot of states seem to have no trouble murdering 16 yr old kids either Bleedin' barbaric *shakes head*

Actually... that would be the age of the crime. It is many years of appeals before a criminal is actually put to death. We have a jury that convicts criminals here. A jury of 12 people, diligently screened. They listen to the arguments and evidence on both sides, and they are instructed by the judge as to what their options are in the case. All 12 have to agree that the crime was so horrific that this person deserves death. If they do not all agree on a verdict, then there can be no death sentence. And if the judge decides that the defendant should not be put to death, he/she can overturn the jury's sentence. And that does happen.

I don't know what your system is. I will assume that yours is quite different from ours and that is why you made the comparison and statement that our system is 'barbaric'.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Good for you.........if you're happy with telling a sixteen year old kid that someone is going to put a rope around his neck and either use that rope to break his neck or wait until he suffocates as the rope is slowly tightened under his own bodyweight and he dies of asphyxiation, more power to you.

We don't do hangings. They may still be on the books - but there hasn't been for ever I can remember. If you can tell me where a 16 year was hanged in the last 30 years let me see it - otherwise start talking about something you actually know something about.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
no, actually you all said that you would be interested to see his "proof that the bible is the word of god," as would I. If that "crap" (in runiel's words) interests you, then ok I guess I was wrong

That will be 5 cents for royalties to me for using my word.

Maybe we can start a "Crap about how old the Bible is" thread for you to post all that stuff, LE.

[Elven Archer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We don't do hangings. They may still be on the books - but there hasn't been for ever I can remember. If you can tell me where a 16 year was hanged in the last 30 years let me see it - otherwise start talking about something you actually know something about.

i think the firing squad is still done though. seems like i heard about it on the news last week.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We don't do hangings. They may still be on the books - but there hasn't been for ever I can remember. If you can tell me where a 16 year was hanged in the last 30 years let me see it - otherwise start talking about something you actually know something about.

*shrugs* If the law exists, the possibility of it happening is there.......in the UK we have laws that are updated regularly to prevent those in power using outdated laws as justification for brutal killings under the law.......I guess your country just leaves old laws written because "It doesn't really happen anymore".

I don't know what your system is. I will assume that yours is quite different from ours and that is why you made the comparison and statement that our system is 'barbaric'.

Well, we don't have a law that allows anyone to hang a sixteen yr old child if that's what you mean.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
Good for you.........if you're happy with telling a sixteen year old kid that someone is going to put a rope around his neck and either use that rope to break his neck or wait until he suffocates as the rope is slowly tightened under his own bodyweight and he dies of asphyxiation, more power to you.

I have no problem telling a serial rapist and killer that he's going to be put to death, by whatever means. You think that someone who brutally tortures other human beings and then slowly kills them should be released into society? Or even kept in prison for the remainder of their lives with other inmates? How about someone who brutally rapes little boys and then slits their throats dumping their bodies into a shallow grave in the woods. Their mothers and fathers never knowing what happened to them. No, I have no problem telling them, whatever age, that they are going to be put to death for their actions.

But happy? No... I would rather these terrible crimes never happened at all.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
*shrugs* If the law exists, the possibility of it happening is there.......in the UK we have laws that are updated regularly to prevent those in power using outdated laws as justification for brutal killings under the law.......I guess your country just leaves old laws written because "It doesn't really happen anymore".




Well, we don't have a law that allows anyone to hang a sixteen yr old child if that's what you mean.

Actually, the laws are changed. This is why some states do not have the death penalty and some do. Some abolished it and then brought it back for the adults and for those kids of 16 (as you call them) who commit heinous acts of violence and death.