04-27-2004, 01:05 PM | #1021 | ||
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The lab's own statement that says the method is suitable for samples of a certain date range proves "one must assume the age prior to testing".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-27-2004, 03:13 PM | #1022 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Labs only run the tests that the client requests. If the client has some motive to get the wrong answer that client might be tempted to intentionally request an inappropriate test. A true blind sample test would run the full spectrum of tests.
*still chuckling*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
04-28-2004, 12:16 PM | #1023 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As I said before, enjoy it while you can, Cirdan *wistful smilie*
I'm looking forward to the "instant replay" when I get home to heaven. Should be quite interesting - I hope we can get one!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-28-2004, 01:02 PM | #1024 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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anyone want to take a venture at my question from earlier...
if you buy the creationist belief, is there any way to to theorize which version of creationism is more or less likely? or might it very possibly be one we haven't even thought of yet?
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04-28-2004, 02:03 PM | #1025 |
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I would assume the creationist point of view that is as close to the evolutionary point of view is the more likely. the more young earth and dogmatic literalist you get the more painfully obvious how bogus it is. But I know people who believe a creator is responsible for everything and for humans in particular and that evolution has been guided to that end.
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04-28-2004, 04:50 PM | #1026 | |
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(by "if possible", I mean that some people have equated the Biblical version of creationism to a simple one-line thing, like "A giant turtle made the universe." Well, a one-line thing like that CAN'T be put into any time of scientific question, whereas the Biblical account CAN, because there are more specifics listed, such as immutability of kinds, and catastrophism.) But as I said before, I think science was hijacked by evolutionists to try to support a philosophy that is outside the realm of science in the first place (and is very comfortable mentally; i.e., no God, no moral accountability!), and then creationists, reacting against how "painfully obvious how bogus" (to borrow a phrase from IRex) some of the ideas evolutionists came up with were, and that people were actually believing them as scientifically proved, decided to jump into the fray themselves and do the best they could. Science was originally "let's find out how things work!" and involved making hypotheses and doing experiments and observing and measuring. BOTH evolutionism and creationism are "let's make an educated guess about what happened in the past, and do experiments where we can, and just make conjectures about the rest, because we really believe in our philosophy about how things got here, and we want to try to show it's true, as much as possible."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-28-2004 at 04:54 PM. |
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04-28-2004, 05:13 PM | #1027 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I thought I'd include a bit from G. K. Chesteron's book, The Everlasting Man (written in 1925). I wish he were alive today, he seemed like a really cool guy - intelligence coupled with great wit and love. Anyway, he had some observations on what we've been discussing here (and I have a quote from him in my sig that I really like.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-29-2004 at 12:27 AM. |
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04-28-2004, 05:24 PM | #1028 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-29-2004 at 12:28 AM. |
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04-29-2004, 09:36 AM | #1029 | |
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they see evolution and god as completely compatible i guess what i'm asking is what theories specifically address the biblical interpretation, and not the general idea of creationism as a whole? for instance, you say a fish can't become a llama, or whatever... but what's to say that a godlike being didn't do successive 'creating' over a long time period... creating the earth 5 billion years ago... creating bacteria 2 billion years ago... creating dinosaurs a few 100 million years ago... allowing them to die out... creating humans a million years ago?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-29-2004, 12:05 PM | #1030 | |
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1. The account of all types of animals being created, including mammals, at one point in time, and described as specifically procreating after their own kind. 2. The specific association of death with the sin of man - death did not enter into the world until man sinned. 3. The absense of any indication of other creative events besides the account in Genesis 1.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-29-2004 at 12:07 PM. |
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04-29-2004, 12:48 PM | #1031 | |
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but i was trying to separate the 'science' part in creationism from the 'belief' part... the issues you bring up are based upon a book written a long time ago (and some are contradicted by other ancient writings on how the earth was created), not upon observable evidence is there any physical evidence that might infer the things you mention? for instance, the age of the earth has been approximated by things like artic core samples where you can count the years, or carbon dating... you can argue the veracity of the methods, as you have... but at least there are physical methods to argue about when it comes to determining the age of our planet... these seem to be missing from the creationist pov
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04-29-2004, 04:18 PM | #1032 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But you're missing the whole point - evolutionism is ALSO based upon a 'belief' (the belief that there are only naturalistic forces behind what we see) and different scientists take different beliefs and then see if they can formulate hypotheses based on them and then see if evidence supports them. The beginning of both creationism and evolutionism is the same - a belief about what happened in the past. Quote:
for #1 - observable genetics as far as breeding more obviously supports creationism, IMO - see my write-up. What we SEE is that change of kinds is bounded, even for the really fast reproducing things where you can get lots of generations. For example, whoever brought up that fly example - well, it was STILL a fly, and a seriously damaged one at that. Call it a new species of fly, it doesn't matter - it's a damaged FLY. (and btw this is prob. a good area to point out something... I imagine that when some people read the fly example, and the line about how a new species was produced, they went "oooohhh! Cool! evolution proved again!" People! please realize that this is NOT evolution proved AT ALL! A "new species" is NOT a measurement, like determining weight or mass or voltage or chemical make-up. It's basically a decision made by some scientists to call something a little different a "new species". That's ALL. THAT'S ALL. And it's STILL a fly. This supports creationism more than evolutionism, IMO.) Evolutionism says that things can go from fish-like thingy to bird, based upon assuming naturalistic forces behind things, and based on assuming macroevolution is true, and based upon seeing what is called microevolution happen. But as far as observing, microevolution does NOT go beyond ... microevolution, which is a perfect fit to the hypothesis of creationism in this area. For 2 and 3, that would fall under background thoughts to formulate the theory. Just like the background thought to formulate the theory of evolution is that naturalistic, non-intelligence-driven forces are behind what we see, and change was based on mutations that were advantageous (and again, the actual observable evidence as far as mutational change disproves evolutionism more than proves it - typically the best example of an advantageous change is the sickle cell anemia one - pretty poor example, IMO, and there's tons of examples of harmful changes). Based upon that thought, things like PE were proposed. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-29-2004 at 04:30 PM. |
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04-29-2004, 04:43 PM | #1033 | ||||
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saying "we've never seen animals change, so they don't macroevolve" may be right or wrong, but it is a rational argument saying that "death did not enter into the world until man sinned" is completely irrational in scientific terms... what observations is this based on? as for 3., there are a whole host of creation myths out their other than the biblical one Quote:
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04-29-2004, 04:47 PM | #1034 | |
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04-29-2004, 05:15 PM | #1035 |
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No, it's still a definition, not a measurement - that's why there's a lot of disagreement out there as far as how many species there are, altho ability to breed is a big part of the definition. And you can call it an "evolved" life form, but it doesn't prove MACROevolution by any means. And the biggest point is - it's still a fly And one "species" of finch on the Galapagos island came from another "species" of fish - oh, excuse me, it was a FINCH that the FINCH came from, not a fish
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-29-2004, 05:17 PM | #1036 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-29-2004, 08:53 PM | #1037 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-30-2004, 01:51 AM | #1038 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, even a 7th grader should know there's NO way to EVER get a bird from a fish, even over [Carl Sagan voice]millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of years ... [/Carl Sagan voice]
(or whatever it is he says)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-30-2004, 04:13 AM | #1039 | ||||
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None of these resort to supernatural forces, precisely because they (unlike creationism) ARE sciences, and that's what sciences do- they look for natural explanations for the phenomena of the physical world. It's called methodological naturalism. Ex 1: After Newton's Theories of Gravity and Motion were used to explain the orbits of the planets, it was noticed that there was a discrepancy in the orbit of Mercury. That problem went unsolved for almost two hundred years; that Einstein's Theory of Relativity could account for it was one of the evidences in Einstein's favour. Strangely, no scientist proposed that maybe the Eldil of Mercury was becoming Bent and refusing to take his proper place in the Field of Arda (or am I getting my cosmologies mixed up?. Ex. 2: BSE or Mad Cow Disease: This disease baffled biologists- it was clearly infectious, yet Quote:
to 'the belief that there are only naturalistic forces behind what we see' they might have given up and (like IDers) gone off in search of supernatural causes- hexes cast by malevolent neighbours, failure to perform the proper sacrifices to the Cattle Spirit, grazing on old Druid graveyards, blasphemy committed by someone in the afflicted farmers's family. Instead, they came up with prions, even though Quote:
Science is committed to methodological naturalism, because so far it has worked- whereas belief in supernatural agencies to explain the natural world has been, to understate, somewhat less successful. Incidentally, this is a good counter-example to all the creationists whining that they can't get published in scientific journals because of the prejudices of the ruling orthodoxy Quote:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/madcow/faces.html
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04-30-2004, 09:58 AM | #1040 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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