04-12-2004, 04:58 PM | #1021 | |
Hobbit
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No. three I think could be athiest (or approaching thereto).
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04-12-2004, 04:59 PM | #1022 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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(EDIT: I think you may have already answered my question in your answer to Rian above, right?)
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04-12-2004, 05:02 PM | #1023 | |
Hobbit
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Both, I was really a Christian who came from a Christian background. Now I have to go to work (sob)
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04-12-2004, 05:27 PM | #1024 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-12-2004, 05:52 PM | #1025 | |
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Now I'm baaaaaccckkkk!, so watch out!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 06:04 PM | #1026 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I am ignorant of many things; but I have a mind, and my 5 senses, and I have observed a lot of things, and thought a lot about things, and drawn some conclusions that I think are most probably correct, the most important (IMO) being that Christianity, as expressed in the Bible, is by FAR the most likely statement of the truth of things, because it correlates with observations and logical thinking MUCH better than other worldviews (again, IMO - and it is an opinion on which I've spent a lot of thought and energy). I don't want to offend anyone, but I really think that staying in the "well, we'll never know for sure" mindset is a cop-out. The two possibilities are atheism and theism, and one should consider the evidence for them carefully, and at some point make a decision, because one's actions are based on what one believes.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 06:17 PM | #1027 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And btw, my "religion" doesn't fall into either of the 2 categories, nor is it "a passive acceptance of humanity's ignorance on reality and an indifference to discovering the universe's secrets."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-12-2004 at 06:19 PM. |
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04-12-2004, 06:25 PM | #1028 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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as you know, my beliefs are based upon my relative pov... just as yours are based upon your relative pov
the ignorance factor comes in, because i know i can never be 100% sure of my position... there may be a god, there may not be a god, or god may be an expression of a more personal, as opposed to external, force... in which case god actually is a relative thing "well, we'll never know for sure" is not a cop-out, it is a pragmatic acceptance of reality... once you can learn to accept it, then you can look at the opposing views more objectively and analyze what are the positives and negatives of each stance
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-12-2004, 06:39 PM | #1029 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What I mean is that staying in the "we'll never know for sure" mindset is in itself a decision, just like choosing Christianity or atheism or another religion. Agnostics like to present themselves as being somehow "above" those that have made decisions about the most likely worldview, but IMO, they're very wrong, because they themselves have made a decision that their worldview will be "we'll never know, therefore I will not base my actions on any particular worldview." This is in itself a decision. And IMO, it's a bit of a cop-out because I think it's a more right and courageous position to take a stand on your beliefs, and act on them, instead of just saying "we'll never know." IOW, be a force for what you think is good. IMO, there should be a "looking-around" time when a person considers different worldviews, but there is also a decision time, because different worldviews call for different actions. Even tho I think Christianity is the right worldview, based on evidence and thought, I am still open to, and would consider, evidences for other worldviews. The VAST majority of what I have seen out there just continues to confirm my opinion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-12-2004 at 06:52 PM. |
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04-12-2004, 06:46 PM | #1030 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I don't think that being a Christian prevents me AT ALL from "look[ing] at the opposing views more objectively and analyz[ing] what are the positives and negatives of each stance." Why should it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 06:53 PM | #1031 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(I was going to edit this into the longer post, but it got too long, so I'll put it in another post.)
Agnostics like to pull out "we'll never know for sure" like some kind of a trump card. Well, it's not - and it's certainly not news! I say - use your senses, use your brain, give it some time, and make a decision about your beliefs, then ACT on your beliefs for what you believe to be right and good. Make a difference with your life! Stay open to other thoughts, too, and keep thinking things through, and see if perhaps maybe you need to change your decision if you find sufficient new evidence. But don't STAY in a permanant "we'll never know" place - or if you do, realize that THAT is also a decision, and it can be changed.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-12-2004, 07:19 PM | #1032 | ||
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Valandil, you mentioned being a born-again-Christian earlier. What is that exactly? I curious, I've heard the term before but I don't know what it means.
Not to erm... completely change the suject.
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04-12-2004, 07:27 PM | #1033 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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when i say "we'll never know", i mean about the existence of god, or whether or not a certain scripture is or isn't the word of this god... i'm completely open as far as ideas go
i look at ideas from all kinds of religious beliefs, not just one or a few... i see which seem to make sense (i.e. treating those as you would be treated) and which don't seem to not make sense (i.e. insisting that a preacher must remain celibate)... i can pick and choose and am not tied to any one issue due to scripture you say: "use your senses, use your brain, give it some time, and make a decision about your beliefs, then ACT on your beliefs for what you believe to be right and good. Make a difference with your life!" to which i say... that's what i do, i just don't put the god part behind it
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04-12-2004, 09:19 PM | #1034 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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04-12-2004, 09:22 PM | #1035 |
the Shrike
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Val, nice location.
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04-12-2004, 09:31 PM | #1036 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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04-12-2004, 09:33 PM | #1037 | |
Quasi Evil
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the very IDEA of a devout creationist christian castigating agnostics for being close minded and short thinking... oh my goodness... thats the very height of hypocrisy in my evidently limited opinion... im trying to control my vitriol so Ill just apologize ahead of time for whatever i say here but let me just say that the very idea of being agnostic REQUIRES that you KEEP your mind open to all possibilities and spend your existence in vigilant observation of the truth of the world that surrounds you in what you can perceive and what (if anything) we can learn about what we CANT perceive. So for a person (a christian!) to label that kind of thinking as a cop out... well thats just simply mind boggling to me rian. Having spent many years learning about the very roots of all religions and tracing the history of man's religion in a strictly neutral, academic and information hungry sense it has become quite clear to me that christianity is simply a manifestation of something that has trailed continuously throughout history as mans way of approaching his world. If you look at ancient judaic scriptures (and more importantly the pre-judean works that predated the concept of the god of Abraham) you see a steady EVOLVING conceptualizing among the humans of the ancient middle east of a god concept that like a river meandered back and forth until it culminated with the whole jesus story. you see a very different concept for god throughout this time. From a highly personal extremely vindictive one to a softer forgiving deity of unlimited power. From a cult buoyed by myths and force to a revolution carried and simmered by the meekest and the downtrodden. But all along its an evolving one. To ME this tells me something about HUMANITY and not about divinity. It tells me how the mind works and how ancient societies conceptualized and how strong the urge for having something bigger is in man. It has done nothing BUT reinforce my agnostic approach to observing the universe. So to say agnostics purposefully stick themselves in a place where they refuse to budge and refuse to learn any further about their world is maddeningly ridiculous in the highest. We are open to ALL possibilities. Just SHOW them to us. Dont sit there and say well see if you would just have FAITH youd understand the TRUTH. the TRUTH is right in front of me. And it includes the fact that mass delusion is a human psychological standard. I guess its up to humans to sit here and argue whose delusion is the real delusion. But as an agnostic Im the only one who can say it could be any one of us or all of us.
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04-12-2004, 09:42 PM | #1038 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I'll let Rian speak for herself, but knowing her, I doubt she intended any offense to agnostics. For this part I quote, I have NOT formally studied a whole lot about religions in an academic setting. I actually tried just a little, started a 'Religious Studies' course at the U of Illinois 20-some years ago - and had to drop it. I found the professor to be quite (*SEE BELOW) dismissive toward any actual expression of a Christian viewpoint or opinion. Maybe this is not the case everywhere, but it gave me the impression that there's no room for belief (or even a search for metaphysical 'truth') in an academic study of 'religions'. Meanwhile, I've tried to educate myself a bit more informally about my own faith, as well as other religions. I still see Christianity as quite unique and apart from all the others (more so than any of the others are in their own right), but must also admit that my viewpoint can't help but be biased. *sigh* but what can I say... ? I cannot escape myself. None of this is meant to jump on you... just to explain why I (and perhaps others) tend to be a bit leery of the academic viewpoint on religions. *EDIT: I initially used the word 'antagonistic' above, but after thinking about it, came back and replaced it with 'dismissive' - which was I think a more accurate description. It had a feeling of more contempt than hostility.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-13-2004 at 06:44 AM. |
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04-12-2004, 10:05 PM | #1039 |
Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller
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*sigh* Beliefs are silly. But it's against our nature to defy them, and we all have them to some extent. Opinions are stupid. But that is an opinion so now I am a self-proclaimed stupid hypocrate. I wish we could percieve and not judge.
<hippie
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04-12-2004, 10:12 PM | #1040 |
Quasi Evil
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well when i say "academic" i dont necessarily mean the strictly ivory tower dictations of ivy league liberal minds. I mean a more general approach to learning all I can about various religions. I have more books then I can count on christianity and all religions. And many are penned by devout christians (Id have to say the bible is hardly anti christian propoganda and I got that somewhere here...).
Very few things fascinate me more then trying to understand grand concepts like religion. So Ive learned as much as I can. And whether Im looking at zoroastrianism or zulu beauty spirits or the very hight of layered formal christian dogma it all seems to come down to how the HUMAN mind works. thats the fundamental constant. Not the divine. So for me i remain agnostic because what i LEARN about the world and about humanity's approach to religion tells me theres a ceiling in religion that can be quite easily observed when you stand back from it. But yet I wouldnt be surprised if there was something to it as well. I just dont think its the super specific ideas and rules of any one SPECIFIC religion really.
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