06-13-2003, 03:34 AM | #1021 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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It's funny that you brought up the arrowheads when you did, and I would certainly expect you to see that they are NOT the product of time and chance, as you definitely did. Here's some quotes from the Morris book about arrowheads and design: Quote:
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But then you see an arrowhead, and Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 03:36 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 03:41 AM | #1022 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And the last post for tonight - the book then goes on to discuss Carl Sagan's book Contact (which was recommended to me by an evolutionist that has posted on this thread, and which I thoroughly enjoyed!)
What do the astronomers listen for to indicate an intelligent being? Random noise? Of course not! They are listening for complexity and design, and when they finally hear it, they are thrilled, because the logical inference from their scientific observations is that an intelligent being is behind that signal! Morris' conclusion to this section: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 03:43 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 03:45 AM | #1023 |
Alasailon
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That's why math is the universal language. Any advanced species would have an understanding of the concepts of numbers above all else.
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06-13-2003, 03:53 AM | #1024 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I agree. I minored in math in college, BTW - great subject!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-13-2003, 08:10 AM | #1025 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Rian, I hate climbing in this squeaky hamster wheel again! If I knew nothing of science (and what I know is just the very tip of the iceburg! ) and didn't consider the effects TIME has on natural processes.....the inevitible and logical selection of what works well for a situation thriving over what doesn't, and that this constantly occuring process gets built upon in an ever-expanding manner, over all directions, situations and possibilities, for eons...allowing amazing yet logical things to occur (IMO) I might go for the "anything complicated must be made by a magic man in the sky" route. But for some reason... that's about the last thing I would consider! Sorry, evolution is not an over simplified "things just happen by chance" process, and not the only process that has brought about the "apparent" wonders we see. I don't know what all has happened in the universe anyway! ....but to attribute the universe to an invisible, all knowing, all powerful thing that just "is" a la Tom Bombadil or something (and who has also conveniently disappeared from the planet) is about the most ridiculous thing (IMO) I can imagine.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 06-13-2003 at 01:08 PM. |
06-13-2003, 11:11 AM | #1026 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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But to use this analogy to say the world is created is a big leap. Just because one beautiful thing is created does not mean all the other beautiful things are created. Don't be sorry, Lizra. It's great that you can find something like that in your garden. The ground of our garden just isn't good for preservation of any fossil. And finding arrowheads sounds very exotic to me. No indians here. But I once did find a stone with a round hole in it. I used to pretend it was made by a caveman. That's about the extent of fossils you'll find on the ground around here.
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06-13-2003, 11:50 AM | #1027 | |
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Quote:
Have you seen that Darwin quote on the eye before?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 12:06 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 11:57 AM | #1028 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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2 - I agree, and I also agree with when you said further down that sometimes we can't tell or might make errors. But I think the arrowhead is a great example of when creation is the most logical inference, don't you? 3 - Yes, it's a HUGE leap, and I didn't make it, and I don't intend to make it. 4 - I agree
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 11:59 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 12:15 PM | #1029 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
and: Quote:
Why? They would not be very good scientists to make conclusions without corroborating facts. I applaude your attempt to present the creationist side, Rian. I will be patient but I don't want to wait for too many posts to respond, so don't get discouraged if it seems like getting attacked before you've made the case.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 06-13-2003 at 12:23 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 12:21 PM | #1030 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 06-13-2003 at 12:24 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 01:11 PM | #1031 |
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Rian:But why would you want Creation taught in science classes as a scientific theory when it is not one? ? Where would you fit it in science books? At the beginning of a biology book? "And now a theory that makes absolutely no sense and does not relate to the rest of the book: (and is not even a scientific theory) 'god created everything,' please disregard" :P well thats how i would picture it as.... or at leas that is what I would think of it.
Creation is based on faith..it is not scientific at all. Without a god creationism does not work.... oh well. and just in case you didn't notice, I replied to what you asked me near the bottom of page 73.
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06-13-2003, 02:33 PM | #1032 | |
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Quote:
Evolution is concerned with the development of life on Earth. If you substitute "science" for "evolution" in the quote you'd be getting more accurate. In the creationist model, it all depends on what you mean by the "basic systems of nature". If you mean the laws of the Universe, then of course it would apply to everyone from Deists, who believe God created the Universe and then left it to run on its own, to mainstream Christians who believe in Theistic Evolution, all the way to Young Earth Creationists- basically ANYONE who believed the Universe was created by a higher power- including many people who thoroughly support neo-Darwinian evolution If by "completed, functioning form" you mean complex forms of life which have not changed over time then this is basically YEC, and you are excluding many Old Earth Creationists, as well as most advocates of Intelligent Design (people such as Michael Behe ). So, no, the definitions suggested by Morris are not very useful. How about this: Evolution, the believe that life on Earth developed from simple to complex and varied forms over long periods of time through the operation of natural selection on random variations, solely through naturalistic means. Creationism, the belief that it is not possible that life on Earth could have developed solely through natural means; at some point or points supernatural intervention was necessary. I think this is a big enough tent to include everyone from the Flat-Earthers through YECs, OECs and IDers, while excluding Theistic Evolution.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-13-2003, 03:14 PM | #1033 | |||
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From Rian
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from Origin of Species, by Charles Darwin To suppose that the eye, [with so many parts all working together] ... could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What Darwin himself says: Quote:
From Steven Jay Gould, himself a continual victim of this practise: Quote:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html For Creationist quote mining: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/#s1-6 And the adoption of this tactic by IDers http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=12 http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/art...t_4_5_2002.asp Of course, I'm not suggesting dishonesty by anyone posting here; just that the field is so contentious and full of half-truths and misquotes that it would be nice to see a reference for any quotes.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-13-2003 at 03:20 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 08:28 PM | #1034 |
Elf Lord
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GrayMouser: give it up mate! They ain't worth the effort. 30 seconds spent contemplating the Mesozoic Era is better spent than 30 hours wasting your time on this lot.
They are truly the Agents of the one true anti Christ; Ignorance, bent on diverting smart people like you from doing better things with your time!
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I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? Last edited by Draken : 06-13-2003 at 08:30 PM. |
06-13-2003, 08:42 PM | #1035 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Hey! Spreading knowledge is never a waste of time, even if it doesn't take.
GM, I enjoyed the links you posted. Killed several hours following them.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
06-13-2003, 10:45 PM | #1036 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Though I have long since retired from the field, it nice to see that the there are others who carry the battle onward.
Carry on servants of reason.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-13-2003, 11:20 PM | #1037 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, A-E, I will.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-13-2003, 11:40 PM | #1038 | |
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You have switched sides? I like you a person, but you are a Servant of Faith young lady. Though, I will say you are tenacious,
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-13-2003, 11:43 PM | #1039 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Rian, I only replied so newbies might know that I am a skeptic.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-14-2003, 12:10 AM | #1040 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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rian as voice of reason: "teach creation in science classes" 'nuff said. :P
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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