05-01-2002, 07:19 PM | #1021 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
In other words, are you saying that people change their cultures (or belief systems) only when they are forced to change?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-01-2002, 08:09 PM | #1022 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
Quote:
With the additional definition of disbelief merely being the act of rejecting belief. The oxford Unabridged goes so far as to say that they are synonamous (as so with "infidel" and "skeptic" The definition for agnostic, i must admit, is not exactly what i expected, but it is closer to the position you have held, BH. I think the main problem is the casual usage of "belief" in english; as in,"I believe the keys are on my dresser" instead of " I think my keys are on my dresser". I like the definition of skeptic: a skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds. ...although I like the ring of "infidel"
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-01-2002, 08:25 PM | #1023 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
My response was a macro view related to your statement about social revolution. Individual change of belief system, or the loss of faith in said system, is effeted by a whole host of additional factors. Changing culture versus changing belief system are separate questions. Russians continued to be russians when the majority of society rejected marxism/communism. Culture is related history. People who make history can change culture. The rest of us are relegated to being changed by culture. Did you mean a peoples?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-01-2002, 09:01 PM | #1024 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-01-2002, 09:03 PM | #1025 | |
the Shrike
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Quote:
*Sadly puts away membership badge, and flag.*
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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05-01-2002, 10:37 PM | #1026 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-01-2002, 10:38 PM | #1027 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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One more from the Python gang:
"Bright Side of Life" Always look on the bright side of life. [whistling] Always look on the light side of life. [whistling] If life seems jolly rotten, There's something you've forgotten, And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing. When you're feeling in the dumps, Don't be silly chumps. Just purse your lips and whistle. That's the thing. And... Always look on the bright side of life. [whistling] Always look on the right side of life, [whistling] For life is quite absurd And death's the final word. You must always face the curtain with a bow. Forget about your sin. Give the audience a grin. Enjoy it. It's your last chance, anyhow. So,... Always look on the bright side of death, [whistling] Just before you draw your terminal breath. [whistling] Life's a piece of ****, When you look at it. Life's a laugh and death's a joke. It's true. You'll see it's all a show. Keep 'em laughing as you go. Just remember that the last laugh is on you. And... Always look on the bright side of life. [whistling] Always look on the right side of life. [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling] Always look on the bright side of life! [whistling]
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
05-01-2002, 10:40 PM | #1028 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-01-2002, 10:50 PM | #1029 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I consider protestants, catholics, jews (outside of isreal), etc to be sub cultures at the very least. In other words, there's more that's going on than JUST the professed tenants of the belief system. For example, This one guy I know, he's funny, he keeps referring to himself as a jewish athiest. Yes he's makeing a joke, but one with a point. Of ocurse, such sub cultures here are being rapidly subsumed into the mass culture of consumerism, so by the time we get it all figured out, the point may be very well moot. As for the example of Marxism, I disagree that the majority of Russians "bought into" the underlying tenants. Any more than the average American (for example) considers themselves as primarily a capitolist. It's not uncommon for people to belong to more than one "sub-culture" or have more than one "group identity", if you like. My point in all this was, belief systems are complicated. Humans are complicated. Is it more rational to place responsibility for an individual's actions on the individual, or the beleif system the individual holds? Especially when other individuals profess the same thing, but do not act in a similar manner?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-01-2002, 11:01 PM | #1030 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
To put a final nail in the coffin, so to speak, how (and where) did the idea of a priest class arise? Any bright young Anthropology students out there want to venture an opinion? What was the first type of government inflicted on humanity? What is the primary function of a power structure? What happens to group interactions when you get more than say 40-50 people in an organization? Why is humanity doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again? (hint:Monkey Brains) Perhaps we'll change one day. But it seems that change is an exceedingly slow thing. Pehaps more than just what we think will have to change, maybe even the way we think.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-01-2002, 11:44 PM | #1031 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
The primary function of a power structure is to aquire more power. Large groups tend to fragment into smaller groups. Humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again because as a civilzation achieves it's zenith of power and complexity, specialization rises and the general knowledge becomes less important. Pretty soon you have many people so detached from their "tribal" nature and family, they forget everything but the desire for large four wheel drive vehicles and more channels of cable (monkey brains). Either that or most people hate reading history books (i'm the opposite). well, you asked....
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-02-2002, 12:24 AM | #1032 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
Quote:
Even american democracy doesn't strictly adhere to it's egalitarian ideals. After gaining support of enough corporations and millionaires, politicians get voted into office by a minority of eligable voters. Yet a majority of americans believe we live in a true democracy and buy into the american fbs (subcultures not withstanding). Quote:
Is the fbs responsible? No. Individuals that seek to influence other are responsible to some degree. I agree theat the individual is ultimately responsible. The monkey brain will respond to the fbs in a unique way, especially if it thinks it will get a banana. mmmmmm, banana....
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-02-2002, 01:08 AM | #1033 | |||
the Shrike
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Quote:
The area? Who knows. Possibly Europe, possibly the middle east. The proliferation of venus statues is concentrated mainly in Europe... But it really comes down to which migration theory you believe in. Also, at what stage in the development of social hierarchy are we looking at? For power structures to form, we're generally looking at a structure that is more developed than a hunter/gatherer structure (in which there is no real structure, hence, no competition for resources.) So should we examine the tribal structures, or chiefdoms? Quote:
Quote:
[/QUOTE]
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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05-02-2002, 01:43 AM | #1034 | |
Elf Lord
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You see, a beleif system isn't some static abstract concept. it lives, and breathes and dies with the people who use it. As they change, the system changes. Sometimes with horrifying results, as in the case of Nationalism, or something useful, as with social reform movements. I think it all depends on the leader.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 01:46 AM | #1035 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Has anyone here read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? Now that would be an interesting discussion. . .and related, I promise!
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
05-02-2002, 11:11 AM | #1036 |
Elf Lord
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*looks at stack of technical manuals sitting on desk*
I wish. Summerize it!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-02-2002, 11:44 AM | #1037 |
Hoplite Nomad
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hey blackheart
besides eating hobbits etc whadda do as a livin'?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-02-2002, 12:00 PM | #1038 |
Hoplite Nomad
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a few paragraph's i like
However, nothing in particular follows from accepting that apodictic claims are impossible to demonstrate. It does not follow, for example, that because nothing is certain one should suspend judgment on all claims and believe nothing. Nor does it follow that because nothing is certain one should follow the customs and traditional beliefs of one's society. Nor does it follow that because nothing is certain any belief is as good as any other belief. Nor does it follow that because nothing is certain every belief is an equal act of irrational faith. Though each of the above inferences has been drawn by various people, none of them is a valid logical inference from the proposition nothing is certain.
My choosing to believe some things and not believe others is not a direct consequence of my philosophical skepticism. I accept that nothing is certain, but the only thing that seems to follow from that is that none of my beliefs are absolutely certain, i.e., without possibility of error. Probabilities are the best we can hope for and probabilities seem to be sufficient for daily living and for science. Those who have a need for absolute certainty may not accept this but I believe their rejection of probability as sufficient for human purposes is based on feelings and emotions, not thought. I hope it is obvious that by 'probability' I do not mean 'mathematical probability.' The mathematical probability that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow may be zero, but the probability upon which humans may reasonably rest their expectations is very, very high. Epistemologically speaking, I cannot say with absolute certainty that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. But, if I am driving east in the morning, I will bring my sunglasses and not feel in the least that I am acting on faith or that I could just as well get where I want to go by heading west. i picked them up here http://skepdic.com/
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-02-2002, 12:15 PM | #1039 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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05-02-2002, 12:38 PM | #1040 | |||
Elf Lord
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Re: a few paragraph's i like
Quote:
Note that also none of the opposite follows from "apoditicticism" either. In order to make critical judgements on any of those however, you need information. Realizing that information is always tainted by subjective bias is one way of maintaining objectiveness. Quote:
My objection to using probabilities as a guage for making policy is that all to often, the data upon which the probabilities are based is skewed or too small of a sample. It might be the best data we have, and if a policy is needed, then we might as well use it, under the caveat that we remember it is only the best available information. However, if you don't actually NEED a policy, there isn't a mandate for one, then why make a decision? Especially why make a decision and call it a "fact"? It seems more emotional to me, than reserving judgement. I think it's related to that human need to avoid saying "I don't know". Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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