01-12-2005, 11:35 PM | #1001 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
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I was misunderstood by both inked and Ragnorak. I need to just stop making mostly joking posts, because people twist my words and get all condescending in some cases.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
01-12-2005, 11:45 PM | #1002 |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
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An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
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01-13-2005, 10:55 AM | #1003 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Starr Polish,
But I didn't misunderstand you! I replied in kind! Sorry to have seemed to have missed the boat on that but I thought my tongue-in-cheek was way over the top! I clearly hear what you were saying, I think. That's why I felt free to have a little fun! Ragnarok, Victor Frankl is a wonderful source of discernment IMHO. I have read and re-read his book since college. When I lost it in divorce and accident, I replaced it eagerly. Your wording makes me curious, but I appreciate your witness. Would it be something to discuss further, or would you prefer to leave it as is? Also, are you familiar with Henri Nouwen, THE WOUNDED HEALER? If so, what did you make of it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-13-2005, 11:40 AM | #1004 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
i won't argue that for some people "finding god" makes them a better person... i would argue however that "finding god" is actually "finding themselves" and learning to think long-term as opposed to short-term... there are many stories and quotations in the bible that illustrate the benefits of being a good person... as there are in other religions, or even in non-religious philosophical texts some people need the "god" behind the words to take them to heart... some, like myself, do not... i can find plenty of real world reasons for doing good and helping others... i don't need a "god" behind those reasons, and i don't believe it would make me any better... in fact, one could argue that it might detract from the good i could do people are "tribal" by nature, they stick close to their own and are suspicious of those that are different... usually, the more different, the more suspicious... indentifying myself with any one religious belief (of which christianity is only one of many), by it's very nature puts a certain level of suspicion between me and a person of a different faith... more often than not this suspicion is completely ungrounded, but it does exist in our world send a group of christians into a muslim country and no matter what their actions are, the fear that they are actually trying to convert the populace will exist... send a group of muslims to the US, and the same fears, if not worse, will exist too... much better in my mind to send "unaffiliated assistance" i'm pretty familiar with christianity, as i am with other faiths... i enjoy many of the myths the various religious texts put forth... some are very insightful, some are a bit silly in today's world, some are dangerous if taken too literally... but they are all just stories, like tolkien's lotr... some may even be so good that they actually change the way you view the world... but i would much prefer to continue to let new, and maybe yet untold, stories shape my view of the world, than eternally restrict my view to something that has already been written... no matter how good
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-13-2005, 11:56 AM | #1005 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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what an excellent post brownie!
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01-13-2005, 11:55 PM | #1006 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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brownjenkins,
So man is the measure of man, and supremely, brownjenkins is the measure of man in your belief system? But, if each person feels that way there is no distinguishment of good or evil to which you allude, it is all MERELY subjective. Do I understand your position correctly?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-14-2005, 01:00 AM | #1007 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 409
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It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.
It's quite worrying that as a race of people capable of fully independant thought (and thought processes) so many still require others to tell them how "best" to live, instead of being able to do it for themselves |
01-14-2005, 01:06 AM | #1008 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
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Quote:
When does a young child usually behave the most politely? When they have their parents near at hand and willing to beat the living $*** out of them if they don't mind their manners. |
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01-14-2005, 01:16 AM | #1009 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Actually, with me, it was when I had my nose parked in a book!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
01-14-2005, 01:26 AM | #1010 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Quote:
And whom, pray tell, has uttered that non sequiter other than your brain?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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01-14-2005, 01:32 AM | #1011 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
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01-14-2005, 03:25 AM | #1012 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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I'll have you know that I was the favourite with my rallies! I was bookish, and quiet.... then teenage-hood struck.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
01-14-2005, 06:22 AM | #1013 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 409
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01-14-2005, 06:24 AM | #1014 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 409
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01-14-2005, 08:06 AM | #1015 | |
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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01-14-2005, 11:32 AM | #1016 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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all morals are relative to the individual, which is in fact true even if you subscribe to a religious belief system why are we then not all self-centered murders, rapists and thieves? because *most of us* realize the long-term advantage of being a positive member of society... do onto others as you would have them do onto you makes a good bit of sense in and of itself... irregardless of who you want to attribute the thought too
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-14-2005, 12:13 PM | #1017 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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So you posit an ultimate good by which all other goods are measured : the longterm good of society.
Why should I accept that as the ultimate good from which to base decisions about actions, either my own or others?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-14-2005, 12:17 PM | #1018 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-14-2005, 01:34 PM | #1019 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
Let me phrase it another way - IF it is indeed true that the God described in the Bible exists, and it is indeed true that He can help a person who turns to Him to grow immensely in love for others, and you knew this, would you turn to Him for help, or would you prefer to just use your own resources, even though it meant that you would be less loving to others? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-14-2005, 01:41 PM | #1020 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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