01-12-2005, 01:45 PM | #981 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i actually am a brain in a vat
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-12-2005, 01:51 PM | #982 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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and this kind of logic is exactly why i do not put much thought into the existance of god... it doesn't put bread on my table, make me happy, or help the world around me... i do good for it's own sake, because it is good for society and humanity as a whole, which is ultimately good for me i can't answer the unknowns of whether i exist, or whether god exists... so i leave them out of the equation and look at the here and now... what work's, what doesn't work... or, more importantly, what use to work but doesn't quite work so well anymore due to changes in society, technology, etc.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-12-2005, 05:55 PM | #983 | |
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The three principles are, truth, love and courage; and that from truth arises honesty, and from love arises compassion; and from courage rises valor; and that truth comingled with love gives rise to justice; and love comingled with courage gives rise to sacrifice; and courage comingled with truth gives rise to honor. And truth, love and courage all united creates spirituality; and the absence of all three principals leads to the vile of pride, which leads us to humility. I'll sum this post up with a quote.. If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul. ~ Isaac Asimov Last edited by Ragnarok : 01-12-2005 at 05:56 PM. |
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01-12-2005, 06:16 PM | #984 |
Elf Lord
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Rian, that was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I really liked my philosophy class, and I had a lot of stuff thrown at me that I'd never seen before (huzzah for being one of FOUR freshman in this class...not a good idea) all at once. Yay for "intro" classes that try to cover such a complex topic.
It's easier to imagine "brain in a vat" if you think about the movie The Matrix...at least, that's how the prof explained it to us. Inked, I was actually referring to some Cartesian philosophy there. We never went over that Socratic/Platonic story...only the convo with Euthyphro and Socrates. Believing in God, or a certain religion, doesn't necessarily make people happy or put bread on the table, Rian. I think pursuing both religion/spirituality and philosophy are great aspects of human nature, but not necessary. I know plenty of people who have no God or spirituality who have done more for society and mankind than the hardcore fundamentalist church I attended in high school.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell |
01-12-2005, 06:31 PM | #985 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, the problem of epistemology, as it is properly called, IIRC.
And no doubt your observation may well be true, but does one generalize from the specific to the general or vice versa? And, if the thought process is correct from your local congregational experiences, how long do you predict it will likewise be true of those atheists or agnostics who currently seem so much better?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-12-2005, 06:45 PM | #986 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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First of all, do you think it's good to find out as much truth as possible? IOW, if you want to accomplish something, such as pick up a friend at the airport, and someone tells you, "You can use my car - the keys are hanging by the back door. He's coming into the Ontario airport today at 3:20." - would you prefer to know that the keys are on the bedside table and he's coming into Burbank airport tomorrow at 8:05? Of course you would! Another situation - even if the truth might be unpleasant, isn't it better to know the truth? If you were a doctor, and you examined a close friend and found that he had a form of cancer that was fatal unless treated, would you hold the truth back from him, just because it's unpleasant? Would you think, "Well, if I don't tell him the truth, then it will take about a year until the signs of cancer become glaringly obvious, and it will be too late to treat him by then, but at least he had a year where he didn't know he had cancer!" I don't think you would. My point is that I think knowing the truth is a good and important thing, and more importantly - it lets you deal more accurately and effectively with life. If you agree with this, then the question of God's existence is suddenly shown to be quite important. If God, as described in the Bible, exists, then don't you think that is a fairly important truth, especially considering that He claims that seeking and knowing Him changes your heart for the better and actually enables you to love others more? Since your goal is to do good and love others, wouldn't it be worthwhile to seriously investigate a valid claim (I'm not talking Jim Jones and Koolaid here) that claims to drastically increase your love for others and your capacity to do good for others? Now you can look at individual Christians and spot the ones that are pretty messed up. And I can do the same with atheists and agnostics Christianity doesn't claim that its followers are perfect, or even near perfect; it claims that its followers improve, substantially and permanantly, from what they were, as they draw close to the God that made them and loves them. And I can tell you, from first-hand experience, that that is SO true - so true - marvellously and wonderfully true. I was probably the second most selfish person on the planet (one of my brothers-in-law edged me out for first place) before I became a Christian. I can't even begin to describe the magnitude of the change that has taken place as I have drawn closer to the One who is Love (the Bible claims not only that God is loving, but that He is love). Our family puts a lot of time and money into helping the needy, and we do it out of love and because we want to, not out of some idea of reward in the hereafter. If you seriously look at worldviews and their accomplishments in the area of helping those in need, I think you would probably have to agree that Christian-based organizations have the best track record. Not that Christians are perfect - often those who become Christians are what we would consider "terrible" people, because they can see their need of a Savior easily than those who look good on the outside. But I think overall that Christianity has the best track record for helping the poor and needy; would you agree? So given those thoughts, and given your goal of doing good and helping others, has the question of whether or not God exists has taken on any more importance for you, given the claim (which I can attest to first-hand) that knowing God empowers and enables you to love and do more good?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-12-2005 at 07:03 PM. |
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01-12-2005, 07:01 PM | #987 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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WOW! Three posts while I was typing in my response to brownie!
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To kill of the second misconception, here's a ref (Jesus speaking) : "Not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) (and God's will is clearly NOT doing foul things) As far as the first, are you saying that if someone says some magic words, that they'll be "saved"?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-12-2005, 07:12 PM | #988 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I hate hardcore fundamentalist churches (altho I don't hate hardcore fundamentalists, I only feel tremendously sorry for them, and angry with them if they harm others) - IMO, they do more damage than good.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-12-2005 at 07:15 PM. |
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01-12-2005, 07:26 PM | #989 | |
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01-12-2005, 07:36 PM | #990 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Why did you put up the quote, then? Do you agree with it, or not?
And as I pointed out, Mr. Asimov may freely believe in the God described in the Bible, because He is not that way.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-12-2005, 08:03 PM | #991 | |
Elf Lord
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I never said that all atheists and agnostics are better than Christians. I know of great, TRUE Christians out there as well, and appreciate what they do for the world, and I hope to someday be able and willing to help society this way, regardless of my spirituality (which is and has nearly always been incredibly fluid). And I believe many Christians, whether or not they are contributing good things to society, have good hearts...they may just go about things the wrong way. I am actually quite cynical overall, and don't see a lot of good in the majority of the world's population. When I do see it it makes me very happy, regardless of the person's beliefs.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell |
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01-12-2005, 08:08 PM | #992 | |||
Elf Lord
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Who says that thinking such things would create apathy? Perhaps, if someone does believe this, they will attempt to discover a way to understand WHY they are a brain in a vat, etc, etc. Even if all of our experiences are fabricated, who's to say we shouldn't enjoy them? If they seem real to us, we should embrace it, even though this may be false. Quote:
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See my post to brownie. I agree that there are many atheists and agnostics that are kinder than many Christians. That's not the point. Christianity takes anyone - ANYONE - where they ARE (typically, if they're in a bad place, it's thru VERY little fault of their own and a LOT of fault from parents and those around them) and starts the healing process in their hearts, and a natural outcome of this is increased love and good towards others. It's just that some Christians have a long way to go from their starting point. I hate hardcore fundamentalist churches (altho I don't hate hardcore fundamentalists, I only feel tremendously sorry for them, and angry with them if they harm others) - IMO, they do more damage than good.[/QUOTE]
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell |
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01-12-2005, 08:15 PM | #993 | |
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Heres a question for you, suppose that your God does exist and there is in fact a heaven and hell would an atheist who lived a honest and righteous life, would he go to hell? Last edited by Ragnarok : 01-12-2005 at 10:04 PM. |
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01-12-2005, 09:54 PM | #994 |
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just reading through the last page, i notice a few disturbing things.
it is true religion does not make you happy directly religion is a sense of feeling, that is all - humankind has always filled gaps in knowledge with myth and religion. I am currently reading the Stargate novel, and Ra states that the way to hold control over people is by three things Myth, Religion and Habit if you can govern these, you can rule the people, and it got me thinking how much of a universal truth it is until these can be broken away, humankind can not be truly free, or is that just the neo-socialist in me talking? |
01-12-2005, 10:25 PM | #995 |
Elf Lord
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Human beings can never be free. We are prisoners of our own genetic makeup and influences (in essence, nature and nurture).
Or maybe that's just the psychologist student in me.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell |
01-12-2005, 10:29 PM | #996 |
The Intermittent One
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psychology, eh?
i am quite sure that sociology is the superior of the two, you merely challenge science, whilst i challenge everything, life, but most importantly existence, morality etc |
01-12-2005, 10:34 PM | #997 |
Elf Lord
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Ohoho! You do, now, do you? I find little difference in the two studies. Sociology focuses on the group while psychology focuses on the individual.
And what do you mean, question science? I'm confused by your idea of psychology. (perhaps we should continue this in PMs )
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.†–Bertrand Russell |
01-12-2005, 11:11 PM | #998 |
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Alas, that I should live to see this day! Entmooters, ostensible Tolkien fans, who are iron-clad determinists succling on the discredited theories of Marx and psychology and sociology! Have you not read, have you not known, have you not understood? Yea, sayeth Tolkien, Man is free to choose and CHOICES COUNT!
LCoU - under the mistaken notion that religion is to make one happy as a general proposition! And swallowing whole heartedly the notion that freedom exists in absence of restraint rather than achieving one's Eru appointed tasks?! Star Polish - caught in the tangled web of determinism that denies the efficacy of choice. Swallowing whole heartedly the inescapable fetters of genetics, nature and nurture whilst denying the creativity of tranformation in the person and the family and the society!? I am distraught! Read Tolkien again!!!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-12-2005, 11:15 PM | #999 | |
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Last edited by Ragnarok : 01-12-2005 at 11:27 PM. |
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01-12-2005, 11:22 PM | #1000 | |
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We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. ~ Victor E. Frankl |
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