07-01-2008, 08:29 PM | #981 | ||
Elf Lord
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However, as to your main point. You, and other believing Christians in this thread, have repeatedly said, "Yeah, well, Christians agree on all the important things, therefore the constancy of their belief is good evidence for its validity." But you're not extending the same courtesy to the process of science. In science, a number of things may contribute to the weight of evidence. Being a double-blind peer reviewed study published in a professional journal is worth more in scientific terms than being a graduate student's notion. Likewise proofs regarding the Bible that are supported by scholarship and tradition in some cases and those are worth more than religious points of view held by one scary dude with a church in the hills. Neither science nor religion has unanimity of opinion. And certainly, in a forum like this, either can be misrepresented, either through ignorance or intent. But still, the balance of your reason falls on the side which rejects, not only bad science, but science as a method for evaluating reality. Thats' why I say Coffeehouse may as well save his querty. Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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07-01-2008, 08:35 PM | #982 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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She was "more" than any other human, but not beyond humanity.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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07-01-2008, 08:37 PM | #983 |
Elf Lord
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Hard to sell that to an old Methodist.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
07-01-2008, 08:42 PM | #984 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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But if I were to say it (which I wouldn't), I imagine that I would mean it would show the validity of what they agree on, not what they argue about. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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07-01-2008, 08:46 PM | #985 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It's hard to sell a lot of stuff to you, siscoz. I bet if I came by your house peddling candy, you'd give me the boot.
But, both Lief and myself (and I think, Hector?) are old Evangelical Protestants. That's harder to sell.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-01-2008, 09:30 PM | #986 | |
Elven Warrior
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
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07-01-2008, 09:39 PM | #987 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No, she was not a goddess. Such a doctrine would transcend heresy. Yes, she was a human. Yes, she still needed to be saved. No, she did not have sin, through the grace of God; the merits of Christ's death and resurrection were applied to her before it occurred, when she was conceived. But it was Christ's salvific act that enabled her to be sinless.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-01-2008, 09:44 PM | #988 |
Elven Warrior
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when i say she had sin i meant like you and me yes by the grace of God we don't....we still sin tho
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
07-01-2008, 10:00 PM | #989 |
Elf Lord
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You betcha. But a glass of cold water with it.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
07-01-2008, 10:32 PM | #990 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-01-2008 at 10:34 PM. |
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07-01-2008, 10:56 PM | #991 |
Elven Warrior
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Mary was born with sin...if she wasn't then she would not be human...and if you remember Eve was the first one in the garden to bite the apple.... but mary was born with sin and did sin but she was righteous in God's eye and was part of the david blood line so Jesus became human as a little baby and through the holy spirit entered her but since he did not take her DNA he was not born with sin...so only Jesus was born without original sin.... plus your also saying Jesus was in her before she was born but in the bible it clearly says when Jesus entered her womb.
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- Last edited by Azrael : 07-01-2008 at 10:57 PM. |
07-01-2008, 11:03 PM | #992 | ||||
Elf Lord
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She was the Mother of Jesus, so she was the mother of God, because Jesus is God, but Jesus exists before she was born. Jesus exists from eternity, but he came into her and she conceived him by the Holy Spirit, and then she became the Mother of God. That wasn't the moment Jesus came to exist- it was the moment he became Incarnate. He exists before that, and he exists always.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-01-2008 at 11:05 PM. |
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07-01-2008, 11:16 PM | #993 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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hey you never answered me...can i call you Chap?
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- Last edited by Azrael : 07-01-2008 at 11:18 PM. |
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07-02-2008, 12:09 AM | #994 | |||
Elf Lord
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Yeah, and for that matter, all the righteous people in heaven are humans and yet they're all completely sinless. So being sinless definitely doesn't make you non-human.
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In fact, some of the apparitions of Mary have included her holding the infant Jesus. His body is from eternity, so the infant Christ body was eternal too. Christ at every stage of his existence was eternal. Anything added to him was only added to him from a human perspective, I think, but truly God was always that way. Probably Gwaimir could give you a much better answer. But no, in Catholicism, it isn't humanity becoming God but God taking on flesh- which is partly Mary's flesh. The scripture says the Word became flesh. Quote:
Sure, call me chap or leaf, I don't mind at all . I actually rather like it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-02-2008 at 12:20 AM. |
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07-02-2008, 12:13 AM | #995 |
Elf Lord
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You do know, don't you, that "DNA" is not a Biblical concept.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
07-02-2008, 01:14 AM | #996 |
Elven Warrior
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two things all I know about cus again we entered over my head. Both DNA and Mary's sins are not in the bible for one reason. The bible (God's word) is not concerned with it the bible follows one thing only...our fall and jesus repairing it HisLessions he taught us. It also goes with dinosaurs yes their in the bible (labiathan) but it only metion thems one or two times...why because thats all the Bible was concerned with...it affect a person in the bible once or tice so it was mentioned but God really doesn't find that apart of his plan. As for Mary sinning "we all sin and fall short of the glory of God" not it does not say "we all in and fall short of the glory of God except Mary" to think she was not a sinner is to think she is above humanity and is holy. Human in Heaven yes are sinless and yes are still humans..but on earth everyone who went to Heaven is in Heaven and ever will go to Heaven has sinned during their time on earth. You can not get away from the fact that everyone sinned mary, even paul he killed Christians remember? Everyone is a sinner and everyone needs God plain and simple but not everyone accepts this. Now what I think is instead of arguing among ourselves we should spread God's truth. I have gone all over the web too and seen all those pictures of "Mary" not one looked like her most of them didn't even look close to a person or anything of that such. To say that mary was above that church showing her self is the same as saying that the Devils face was in the smoke of the twin towers. Anyone can make things look like other things...as for those pictures of whatever was above that church angel or what is not really that important, but God's word is...i'd say Chap instead of showing coffee pictures stick to the Word! God's word is more powerful then anything us humans can come up with.
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
07-02-2008, 01:51 AM | #997 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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We Catholics see Mary also as one of those very few human exceptions. Really, one of the only four humans to ever have been conceived this way on Earth. It's certainly fun discussing this with you, by the way . Quote:
Some Protestant Bible have retranslated it, "highly favored," IMO largely to get away from the fact that this title for Mary from Gabriel implies her purity and sinlessness. This retranslation only occurred with the Reformation. Your claim that she was, "above humanity," is harder for me to respond to, as I don't know precisely what you mean by that. Were Adam and Eve "above humanity," because they were made without sin? Quote:
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Jesus also, when he was on Earth, pointed to miracles his Father in heaven had accomplished in order to convince others to believe his message. He didn't only point to the scripture, though he sometimes did that too (especially seeing as his audience already accepted the truth of the scripture, so there was common ground). That's no different than what I'm doing. I sometimes use scripture and sometimes point out marvelous signs of God. As St. Paul said, "the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power." We should give the message too, of course. But you have to understand that unhappily, non-Christians on this site often reject the message of the scripture because they see it as simply one other old book. So while I use scripture at times, and spend much of my time trying to show why scripture is to be believed (the first order of the day in religion threads on Entmoot), I use whatever tools God has provided me to try to open doors for human souls between Earth and Heaven.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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07-02-2008, 07:23 AM | #998 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Dear Lief, much as I realized from day one in this thread that I won't be persuading any Christians to re-evaluate their faith, it was not my intention either. What I would like to do however is point out inconsistencies in the faith, my problems with these inconsistencies and a few troubling aspects of the nature of God, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. I'll have to break it to you then that your fighting an impossible uphill struggle if you are trying to win people like me over to believing in God. I see the good nature in your attempts at conversion, but I respectfully decline; it's not going to happen Sis is right. If a believer is pre-disposed to cast science out of the window in favor of personal opinions with no basis on evidence.. well, then reasoning doesn't get me very far But here's a shot at it. I at least find the pile of explanations and researchers in all areas of science and social science to be so much more fulfilling: F.ex. the Coptic Church in the Zeitoun district in Cairo and the seemingly Virgin Mary-like apparitions. Let's begin with the fact that you state over one million people at one time or another witnessed the luminescence over the said church during the 3-year period. To witness it you must stand fairly close to the Church. This is a city of millions and a city of a million lights. So I would stipulate that the majority of people who did see the lights gathered in the near proximity of the Church. That this many people saw the what appears to be luminescence and packs of light 'hovering' or 'swaying' above the Church, and understand this to be Virgin Mary standing there with doves flying around her head I take to be a case of mass delusion. It's a fairly straigt-forward process because as we all know, human beings are flock animals. We have the 'flock mentality', i.e. conformity of thinking during times of stress (be it positive or negative stress). It's a conformity of thinking that let's us survive as individuals, because being a part of a group and agreeing with the group in times of stress is a whole lot easier and satisfying than not to. There's nothing wrong about it, but it's a trap that ensnares effectively the human mind. So there is a term for mass delusions in psychology which is called motor hysteria. And here's a definition of it: "Motor hysteria is prevalent in intolerable social situations such as strict school and religious settings where discipline is excessive. Symptoms include trance-like states, melodramatic acts of rebellion known as histrionics, and what physicians term "psychomotor agitation" (whereby pent-up anxiety built up over a long period results in disruptions to the nerves or neurons that send messages to the muscles, triggering temporary bouts of twitching, spasms, and shaking). Motor hysteria appears gradually over time and usually takes weeks or months to subside" So how can we describe the social situation in f.ex. the Zeitoun district in Cairo, and how does this correlate with the above definition? Firstly, the Zeitoun district is home to a mixed Christian-Muslim population. But this is no walk-on-roses community. Here we have Orthodox Christian groups and Wahabi Salafist Islamist groups, who with inflaming language try to spread the same type of conformist religious dogma that would make the strict religious schools in f.ex. Saudi Arabia proud. Secondly, we have the year 1968, when President Nasser ruled Egypt. The rule of Nasser was a period of repression and police violence that make Mubarak's current regime in Egypt look mild. This was the very same period in time when student demonstrations wreaked havoc in Paris. The Tet offensive in Vietnam. 1968 was a year of turmoil in the world that has been particularly noted in history books. The point is that this was a time that most of the million people who watched this luminescence lived in a constant shadow of gov't repression with much social anxiety among both the working, the middle and the upper classes in Cairo. 1968-1971 (When Nasser died and the new dictator Sadat stepped in) was a particularly socially violent period. A time of anxiety. I would then say this; that the vast majority of the million people who witnessed this luminescence were particularly well-disposed to view such a bizarre sight as something meaningful, or something pleasing, or something that unites people, or something that takes on an importance higher than that of the very repressive regime that existed at the time. The police, a hated entity in Cairo at the time, known for their violence (even against judges), would make a pleasing sight for many people of Cairo as they went about not being able to stop the luminescence or find its cause. In short, it was something beyond the control of the gov't. Us vs. them, collective delusion as an answer to tough conditions. It would therefore appear that the observers of this luminescence were predisposed to believe that what they saw was of a religious nature as this was societally expected, and Zeitoun being a particularly religious district. 3. The luminescence above the said Church would be a spectacular event in human history had not the same type of luminescence and the much more frequent sighting of UFO's not been reported every year, every month, every week and every day. I take it these sightings of luminescence are as valid as any other, they often being seen by hundreds and sometimes thousands of witnesses. Do you Lief, believe in UFO's? For my part, the answer is clear. It has been a consistent occurance that luminescence and great swathes of light anomalies occur close to fault lines in the Earth. I'll extend my reasoning a bit further. There are absolutely no fault lines in my country Norway. There is not a shred of geologic disturbance in this long and winding country of mine. In the far stretch of coastline that is southern Norway, also known as the Bible Belt here, there is not a single seismic activity of any kind. Similarly, there are no lights, there are no sightings. In Norway you just never see anomalies of light hanging around in the air. UFO sightings? Absurdly infrequent. The most spectacular sighting we have are the northern lights and thankfully science adequately provides an explanation for all to see and understand This is a detour, but the bottom-line is that location is everything and so is societal expectation. The luminescence above the said Church in Cairo is a shining example of this.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 07-02-2008 at 07:30 AM. |
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07-02-2008, 08:16 AM | #999 |
Elf Lord
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like the pun.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
07-02-2008, 12:25 PM | #1000 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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But you can see for yourself from simply looking at the photos that this explanation is completely ridiculous. Quote:
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The picture I relinked at the bottom of this post has the clearest image of a dove that I've seen, from this incident. It shows the dove hovering directly above the apparition of a person in flowing robes. We know for sure that this isn't hysteria of the crowd because you and I can see it ourselves. Quote:
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I agree with you that it was not an easy time in the world, though. Quote:
I've read that something like 98% of UFO encounters can be explained as either weather phenomenon, hoaxes, actual sightings of new military aircraft being tested that the government can't talk about, natural explanations of various kinds. About 2% are impossible to explain by scientific means. I believe that in the majority of these occasions, the witnesses are reporting accurately what they saw. Especially when there are multiple witnesses together who saw it. When we get into scientifically unexplainable phenomenon, such as lights hurtling through the sky at 1000 MPH and reversing direction with the speed of a bullet, zig-zagging through the sky at impossible speeds, or cascades of shining snowflakes falling to earth, shining in dazzling light for a while and then vanishing without a trace, or aliens appearing and talking to groups of people and then disappearing into thin air, things of that sort, or other UFO phenomenon that reach into the more bizarre and leave broad physical traces, when there are plenty of witnesses together, I'm likely to believe that they're accurately describing what they saw or experienced. A lot of corroborating stories is good evidence. That doesn't mean that their interpretation of these phenomenon is correct. While I believe they did see aliens coming from spacecraft, these weren't really aliens or spacecraft- they were spiritual entities posing as aliens. These kinds of UFO encounters are widely acknowledged by researchers to closely parallel mystical experiences people have been having for centuries. The appearances of the aliens and their actions, the kinds of episodes, closely parallel mystical experiences people have described in past centuries of gods, werewolves, vampires, demons, jinns, fairies or other such creatures. I agree with the majority of researchers that UFO encounters are a continuation of these phenomenon. These encounters also usually involve people that have a history in the occult. I think the 2% of unexplainable encounters are usually demons. Quote:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1832.htm These luminous sightings are still being reported at Hessdalen, Norway. Quote:
Please look again at the photograph and study it carefully for a minute or two. It shows one of the doves hovering right above Mary's head, and that is clearly a bird. It shows the figure of a woman with visibly flowing robes, and an obvious halo. Again, that is obviously what we're looking at. You and I aren't looking at some fluctuating ball of light. The shapes are definite. You and I can see that. http://indefenseofthecross.com/images/zeitoun6.jpg
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-02-2008 at 12:40 PM. |
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