04-10-2006, 09:24 AM | #981 | |
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04-10-2006, 10:20 AM | #982 |
Elf Lord
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I don't have time at the moment to respond to you, Nurv, but just to let you know, we were discussing the Holocaust and Christianity on page 43.
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04-10-2006, 10:22 AM | #983 | |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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Ah, where to start replying?
Firstly, its wonderful to find so many people opposing the 'Condemn Islam as violent' theory... I don't feel nowhere as bad as I did when I started out... And, I find myself nodding at so many things Nurv has been saying. Particularly: Quote:
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." The Quran, Chapter 2, Verse 62 And, yet, we quarrel. :sigh: I suppose that more or less sums up my view of Earniel's mountain quote... at least regarding these religions, they are paths leading the same way. I haven't really given much thought to the other ones. And, I don't remember where you asked me this, but Lief, you were quizzing me as to Sharia law. Anyway, let me make that completely clear. In my opinion, Sharia law is too harsh, and at times, quite unjust. However, Islam is a strict religion, and therefore, even when its not legalized, much of the moral values of the religion are imprinted on the society (I guess, its more of an effect on the unwritten laws of society). That, at least, is what I've seen in practice. Whereas Christianity is more lenient, or less effective. BTW, Valandil, maybe, Hitler wasn't a Christian. But all those Germans who followed him, heart and soul, surely they were? Or at least a lot of them. A horrific case of Christian fundamentalism? or are you going to say they weren't true Christians? In which case, why am I not allowed to disown Muslim extremists as false Muslims, but must have them thrust at my face all the time? This may be my last post here for quite some time; I'll be leaving entmoot for a while, as my exams are coming up quite soon, and I really need to find more time to study. It was very enlightening, and quite fun, to discuss here, and in an odd way, I shall miss it. I suppose I shall be popping in here now and then, to read up a little...
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04-10-2006, 10:24 AM | #984 |
Elf Lord
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One major problem and difference between Muslims and Christians are that Christians get an eduction worth the name, while poor Muslims get the only education there is to be had for them - the one from their religious leaders, with a heavy dose of intoctrination.
There are perhaps Christian fools too, people who do not question what their priests tell them, as well muslim ones, but they are few and far between. Indeed these fools are more prolific among Muslims than Christians. These people are the ones that make up the lion's share of the extremists. They remind me of the Comunist saying of "having useful fools" to further the revolution. Last edited by Grey_Wolf : 04-10-2006 at 10:27 AM. |
04-10-2006, 01:37 PM | #985 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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04-10-2006, 02:30 PM | #986 | |
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Interesting book: Hilter's Cross by Erwin Lutzer... check it out.
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04-10-2006, 07:02 PM | #987 | ||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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However, Hitler did give some speeches that gave a pretense at Christianity, because about 30 million of the people in his country were Christian. Quote:
However, you must remember that the Christians of Germany trusted Hitler, and Hitler was brilliant with propaganda. He knew how to make his invasions look good and ethical. He also was the man who had rescued their country from an abyss of economic oppression from the rest of Europe. This gave them a bias to believe him. Furthermore, only a very small number of people knew about the Concentration Camps or the Final Solution. This was all top secret. The world was shocked to find out about those atrocities when we broke into those camps after the war was over. The German people did not know. So while many German Christians of that time can be condemned for racism and anti-Semitism, it is important to understand that they were hoodwinked and they had no knowledge of the deeds that have made Hitler most infamous, in hindsight. Quote:
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Anyway, Islam's history proves how Mohammed and his earliest supporters interpreted jihad. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-10-2006 at 07:30 PM. |
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04-10-2006, 07:30 PM | #988 | ||||
Elf Lord
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But I do understand we have some close similarities in doctrine between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. That's true, and I find it helpful, often, when talking with people. For example, I'm befriending a Muslim at college named Ash, and last semester our English class was turning into a religious debate. It turned out to be me and him arguing together against the existentialism philosophy others were supporting. That was a very interesting experience, arguing side by side with a Muslim against other views we both disagreed with. Quote:
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However, millions of people don't receive Jesus in their hearts and don't dedicate their lives to following him, but they think of themselves as Christians anyway. Thus for them the law is not fulfilled, but they think it is. They need a law to live by, for they think they're saved and therefore "in," and can live the rest of their lives as they choose. Since Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and he is not in their hearts making them good, they fall. They would be better off as members of Islam or Judaism, where there is structured morality for them to live their lives in accord with. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-10-2006, 11:49 PM | #989 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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-from About.Com, Adolf Hitler & Christian Nationalism: Nazis Program of Positive Christianity A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. German Christianity was a divinely sanctioned religious movement which combined Christian doctrine and German character in a unique and desirable manner: True Christianity was German and True German-ness was Christian. What was Positive Christianity?: The NSDAP Party Program stated in part: “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....” Positive Christianity adhered to basic orthodox doctrines and asserted that Christianity must make a practical, positive difference in people’s lives. Christian anti-Semitism: Anti-Semitism was an important aspect of the Nazi state, but the Nazis didn’t invent it; instead, they drew upon centuries of Christian anti-Semitism and extensive anti-Semitic theology in Germany’s Christian community.
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04-11-2006, 01:14 AM | #990 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Quote from Lief Erikson: About Adolf Hitler himself, I don't know what evidence Valandil has to present (curious though I am to know ), but he loathed the Apostle Paul, the one who wrote much of the New Testament. He examined scripture from the perspective of, "what of its true nature remains?" (that was a note found in his writing, among other notes about the scripture) because it was so different from his philosophy. He didn't even pretend to accept all scripture, but picked out certain bits of it. Hitler was involved in the occult, and I've heard it said that he believed himself to be the reincarnation of Woden. He believed Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman soldier. He did not practice Jesus' ethical commands in his life. However, Hitler did give some speeches that gave a pretense at Christianity, because about 30 million of the people in his country were Christian. Quote:
Adolf Hitler was no Christian, and the Christians who followed him were biased in his favor because of all he'd done for their country, hoodwinked by his lies, and unaware of his real character. Hindsight is 20/20, to coin a common phrase, but we here and now have a heck of a lot better information about Hitler than people living under the control of his regime did, and it's much easier from our current comfortable chairs in our free houses half a century later to say, "they should have never listened to him!" when it isn't our families he resurrected from economic collapse and from humiliation and despair, and it isn't us who would have the Gestapo knocking on our door for even thinking of speaking up against him. And as has been pointed out, there were Christians who did object and were tortured and killed in the concentration camps for their actions. The major Catholic and Protestant churches did not speak out in support of Hitler. According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, there was a "strained relationship," between the Nazi regime and the German Christian churches. Quote:
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The Jews were better off than most Germans economically, because they had far better jobs and great mathematical skills. They were a source of resentment because of their success, when many Aryan Germans were in suffering. Hitler leveraged off of this natural resentment to persecute the Jews and turn anger into anti-Semitism. I've never heard the claim that the anti-Semitism was because of Christianity in any of the history studies I've had so far.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-11-2006 at 01:18 AM. |
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04-11-2006, 01:35 AM | #991 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Lief, I am curious to see what your sources of information are, for you to make the assumptions and claims that you do, with such exhaustive relentlessness. If you are to give us long pages of what you say is the truth on an issue, then the least you can do is provide a bibliography and referencable sources, so that we who read your lengthy statements can reference for ourselves your statements of what you call fact. This is what history books do, and what responsible essayists do, or even anyone writing an article in a newspaper or other publication, if they want to be taken seriously or expect to get any kind of real respect from the general intelligensia.
I, personally, do not have either the time nor the energy to "get into it" in this or any other thread with you, my dear Lief, and I say this with nothing but cordial friendliness, but I cannot argue with people such as yourself about world events when it comes down to religion and the "goodness" or "badness" of one religion as opposed to another. It is a ridiculous and potentially endless waste of time, in my opinion, to dicker religious semantics with anyone, much less someone who has a very clear & present, defined bias due to being religiously fanatical him- or herself. The stuff about Hitler I put out there because I like to illustrate the very real point that each and every religious movement of any power - read, the Big Three of the last 2,000 years - have done evil things, and have the potential to do more evil things, and have a fair number of tyrannical hypocrites to their credit. Christianity is no more exempt from this phenomenon as is Judaism or Islam, in fact christianity already has a very long rap sheet of crimes against humanity in the name of the Lord, streching over the past couple thousand years. This is an indisputable fact in and of itself, many, many times over. So, also, has Islam racked up an impressive list of crimes against humanity over the past two thousand years. This, also, is an indisputable fact in and of itself.
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04-11-2006, 02:02 AM | #992 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-11-2006 at 02:20 AM. |
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04-11-2006, 11:04 AM | #993 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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that's enough for this part; new section open
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