Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace - Page 5

The Gaffer · 11-20-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
If I was writing in Dutch I would say something about getting old cows out of the ditch, but I doubt that has the same meaning in English.

ROTFL!

Some much-needed perspective on the thread. You know we're in trouble when people start posting extracts of the US Constitution.

Just as a matter of interest, how would you say it in Dutch?

Oh, and btw, the Queen has no power at all in the UK.

In theory, as Head of State, she "invites" the leader of the biggest party in Parliament to form the government, and she also convenes Parliament, but she is only allowed to do what the Government in turn "invites" her to do. It's all very civilised and executed over cups of tea in the drawing rooms of power.

She's also head of state of a bunch of Commonwealth countries (Australia, [not sure about Canada: did they vote to change it recently?], Jamaica, etc).

In theory, she could refuse to approve a Government, but there's the Parliament Act which can be invoked (which asserts Parliament's supremacy over the Crown and also limits the House of Lords' ability to block legislation).

Draken · 11-20-2003, 10:32 AM

Grrr! Just heard the police will be stopping traffic through Trimdon as part of this State visit thing, so I'll be losing my Finance Assistant for most of the morning.

jerseydevil · 11-20-2003, 01:32 PM

Well the protestors toppled Bush's "statue" I hope they feel better now - especially since Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of his own people - dipping them in acid and putting them through meat grinders, dropping them from 3 stories with their hands and feet tied, cutting off their fingers and hands. I guess all that is acceptable though. Just as long as it's done behind closed doors. or is it just as long as America isn't doing something? I'm sort of confused here.

So now when do the protestors start marching and demonstrating against the terrorists now that they have demonstrated against the great satan the United States?

Dúnedain · 11-20-2003, 01:48 PM

Yeah I've always loved the rationale of the protestors. They protest against a war that has taken down one of the most ruthless killers and dictators of the past century. I mean the guy comes in a close second place right behind Hitler, yet they protest us for freeing the people from his tyranny, lol. Ahhhh the rationale of a protestor

Sween · 11-20-2003, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well the protestors toppled Bush's "statue" I hope they feel better now - especially since Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of his own people - dipping them in acid and putting them through meat grinders, dropping them from 3 stories with their hands and feet tied, cutting off their fingers and hands. I guess all that is acceptable though. Just as long as it's done behind closed doors. or is it just as long as America isn't doing something? I'm sort of confused here.

So now when do the protestors start marching and demonstrating against the terrorists now that they have demonstrated against the great satan the United States?

Have to admitt though JD no matter how good his motives are his excution of these things is terriable! Its the whole WMD debate again if he went into Iraq saying im going into to get rid of this horriable dictator then i think people would like him a lot better but thats not why he went in thats the after though to how they can now justify these ways either way its not the preseidents of the united states job to decided what is right and wrong for the world

jerseydevil · 11-20-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
Have to admitt though JD no matter how good his motives are his excution of these things is terriable! Its the whole WMD debate again if he went into Iraq saying im going into to get rid of this horriable dictator then i think people would like him a lot better but thats not why he went in thats the after though to how they can now justify these ways either way its not the preseidents of the united states job to decided what is right and wrong for the world

Well then I guess we should have just let Melochivic go about his business then. Funny how Europe supported us there. Melochevic didn't attack any outside country, nor did he have WMD. So tell me - why did Europe feel it was okay to go into Bosnia if it's not okay to go into iraq?

By the way - the after thought thing is only because you guys got tidbits of US news. There were MANY reasons why WE were going in there - WMD was only a small piece. It was Blair who wanted to use only the WMD as a reason for going in - that is why 65% of Americans still support us going into Iraq and aren't concerned about not having found any WMD.

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Oh, and btw, the Queen has no power at all in the UK.

In theory, as Head of State, she "invites" the leader of the biggest party in Parliament to form the government, and she also convenes Parliament, but she is only allowed to do what the Government in turn "invites" her to do. It's all very civilised and executed over cups of tea in the drawing rooms of power.

She's also head of state of a bunch of Commonwealth countries (Australia, [not sure about Canada: did they vote to change it recently?], Jamaica, etc).

In theory, she could refuse to approve a Government, but there's the Parliament Act which can be invoked (which asserts Parliament's supremacy over the Crown and also limits the House of Lords' ability to block legislation).

Thank you for the lesson.

So, basically, the Parliament tells her what she's allowed to do. I understand now, I think.

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
Have to admitt though JD no matter how good his motives are his excution of these things is terriable! Its the whole WMD debate again if he went into Iraq saying im going into to get rid of this horriable dictator then i think people would like him a lot better but thats not why he went in thats the after though to how they can now justify these ways either way its not the preseidents of the united states job to decided what is right and wrong for the world

I was just talking with someone this morning about this very subject. She said that she was disgusted that people were protesting the war, even now, after we are already there. She also said that "people are dying over there because of these protesters."

I don't think she understands the situation. First, organized and orderly protest is good, and it is also one of our rights as US citizens. Most people support the men and women who were sent there to fight this war. They are going where they are sent, that's what they do as military, that's their job. Protesting this war has not lead to the deaths of anyone in Iraq.

I think a lot of information was kept from the public as to what was going on in Iraq up until the last minute and much of it was giving to the public well after the war had already begun. So, people felt it was propaganda just being used to promote G-dubya's private little contest with his pappy, and to gain influence in the middle east.

Me? I'm not sure, still, if this was necessary or not. I don't feel that I have enough information. I would have liked for the world to have gone in, if it WAS necessary, as a unified decision. But that didn't happen. I would have liked for the world to have an equal share of troops fighting instead of making US service men and women cannon fodder. But that didn't happen either. As far as I know, the US provided the majority of the troops for this war (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this).

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 02:13 PM

One more thing.

I have a question for the Brits. Given that your government could go on without a monarch, since she really doesn't do anything but what she's told anyway, do you support your taxes going to support this "branch" of your government? Or do you feel that it is not an efficient use of the money you work for? (I honestly would like to know how you feel, and you know how I feel about it.

)

jerseydevil · 11-20-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I was just talking with someone this morning about this very subject. She said that she was disgusted that people were protesting the war, even now, after we are already there. She also said that "people are dying over there because of these protesters." I don't think she understands the situation. First, organized and orderly protest is good, and it is also one of our rights as US citizens. Most people support the men and women who were sent there to fight this war. They are going where they are sent, that's what they do as military, that's their job. Protesting this war has not lead to the deaths of anyone in Iraq.

it gives terrorists a feeling they are winning the public relations battle and that as long as they keep attacking that we will pull out. That is whjat they want. So in an indirect way - they are causing deaths of American soldiers in my opinion.

And as I stated - where are the damn protesters marching against the terrorist bombings?

Quote:

I think a lot of information was kept from the public as to what was going on in Iraq up until the last minute and much of it was giving to the public well after the war had already begun. So, people felt it was propaganda just being used to promote G-dubya's private little contest with his pappy, and to gain influence in the middle east.

Actually - it wasn't kept from the public if you watched the news and read newspapers. It was all out there from the very beginning. Some people just don't watch the news and then act like they know what they are talking about

Quote:

Me? I'm not sure, still, if this was necessary or not. I don't feel that I have enough information. I would have liked for the world to have gone in, if it WAS necessary, as a unified decision. But that didn't happen. I would have liked for the world to have an equal share of troops fighting instead of making US service men and women cannon fodder. But that didn't happen either. As far as I know, the US provided the majority of the troops for this war (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this).

i think it was necessary for a number of reason. The west needs to bring democracy to the Middle East. Giving these people a reason to live is the only way to combat terrorism in the long run. Without them having democracy - there will be no peace. If we succeed in bringing democracy to Afganistan and to Iraq - Iran will soon fall I feel. They are teetering on the brink now. Of course the university demostrators were ruthless cut down in Tehran last year - but amazingly - there were no huge protests in the west against this. I wonder why? Oh yeah - it wasn't the great satan United States.

The protestors can go on and on about how they are not anti-american - but I don't see them marching against the true evils of this world, but they'll march in protest at the US at the drop of a hat.

Sween · 11-20-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
One more thing.

I have a question for the Brits. Given that your government could go on without a monarch, since she really doesn't do anything but what she's told anyway, do you support your taxes going to support this "branch" of your government? Or do you feel that it is not an efficient use of the money you work for? (I honestly would like to know how you feel, and you know how I feel about it. )

As a brit i support the continuation of the monarcy because of the benefit they give to British tourism. They hold no real power but they do have power that i love and that is for any war the government have to go through the Queen now allthough i very much doubt she would ever use this right its nice to have that check. All in all the Royals make a lot more money than they cost us so why the hell not keep them?

***Valandil*** · 11-20-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
All in all the Royals make a lot more money than they cost us so why the hell not keep them?

Interesting... so we silly Americans are probably in actuality the biggest supporters of the British Monarchy!

Ah... the little ironies of life!

Dúnedain · 11-20-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
i think it was necessary for a number of reason. The west needs to bring democracy to the Middle East. Giving these people a reason to live is the only way to combat terrorism in the long run. Without them having democracy - there will be no peace. If we succeed in bringing democracy to Afganistan and to Iraq - Iran will soon fall I feel. They are teetering on the brink now. Of course the university demostrators were ruthless cut down in Tehran last year - but amazingly - there were no huge protests in the west against this. I wonder why? Oh yeah - it wasn't the great satan United States.

Plus the UN was too afraid to stand up and back the resolutions they had in place that said force would be necessary if the resolutions were ignored. Of course the resolutions were ignored, yet the UN didn't use force like they said they would. Naturally the strong allies had to stand up and not let the UN look like a bunch of wimps who don't back what they preach, but ultimately the UN looked like that anyway...

jerseydevil · 11-20-2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Plus the UN was too afraid to stand up and back the resolutions they had in place that said force would be necessary if the resolutions were ignored. Of course the resolutions were ignored, yet the UN didn't use force like they said they would. Naturally the strong allies had to stand up and not let the UN look like a bunch of wimps who don't back what they preach, but ultimately the UN looked like that anyway...

And has basically led to the UN looking like a glorified debating society. It's not surprising that the UN only has a 30% approval rating in the US. I know Europe likes them - but then all Europe seems to like to do is talk and wish for problems to disappear. "Maybe if we wait - they'll just go away". I seem to recall this being tried with Hitler too - see where it got the world.

Dúnedain · 11-20-2003, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
"Maybe if we wait - they'll just go away". I seem to recall this being tried with Hitler too - see where it got the world.

If you look back on History, you will see that has happened in other instances as well. Same happened with Napoleon...

***Valandil*** · 11-20-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
If you look back on History, you will see that has happened in other instances as well. Same happened with Napoleon...

Yes... isn't there a certain term for it, something like...

Europeasment?

jerseydevil · 11-20-2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes... isn't there a certain term for it, something like...

Europeasment?

That's a good word to use from now on.

And Dúnedain - I know that Europe didn't only do it with Hitler - he's just the most visible one at the moment. Also - with Hitler - Europe went even further than just ignoring him - they gave countries to him. "Oh - you want Czechloslavakia - okay - yeah sure. Just move right in. Just don't touch Poland."

sun-star · 11-20-2003, 04:00 PM

Yes, we're all weak and evil, aren't we?

Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country.

sun-star · 11-20-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I have a question for the Brits. Given that your government could go on without a monarch, since she really doesn't do anything but what she's told anyway, do you support your taxes going to support this "branch" of your government?

Yes

***Valandil*** · 11-20-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sun-star
Yes, we're all weak and evil, aren't we?

Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country.

Well spoken sun-star... and sorry about that! Sometimes my wit and mischief get the better of my good judgement and restraint.

11-20-2003, 10:32 AM	#82
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Grrr! Just heard the police will be stopping traffic through Trimdon as part of this State visit thing, so I'll be losing my Finance Assistant for most of the morning. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

11-20-2003, 01:32 PM	#83
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Well the protestors toppled Bush's "statue" I hope they feel better now - especially since Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of his own people - dipping them in acid and putting them through meat grinders, dropping them from 3 stories with their hands and feet tied, cutting off their fingers and hands. I guess all that is acceptable though. Just as long as it's done behind closed doors. or is it just as long as America isn't doing something? I'm sort of confused here. So now when do the protestors start marching and demonstrating against the terrorists now that they have demonstrated against the great satan the United States? __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-20-2003 at 01:34 PM.

11-20-2003, 01:48 PM	#84
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Yeah I've always loved the rationale of the protestors. They protest against a war that has taken down one of the most ruthless killers and dictators of the past century. I mean the guy comes in a close second place right behind Hitler, yet they protest us for freeing the people from his tyranny, lol. Ahhhh the rationale of a protestor __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

11-20-2003, 04:00 PM	#98
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Yes, we're all weak and evil, aren't we? Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

11-20-2003, 02:13 PM	#89
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	One more thing. I have a question for the Brits. Given that your government could go on without a monarch, since she really doesn't do anything but what she's told anyway, do you support your taxes going to support this "branch" of your government? Or do you feel that it is not an efficient use of the money you work for? (I honestly would like to know how you feel, and you know how I feel about it. )