Dying for Colored Rags

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Hey JD,

To make it quick, I think that you should take care of your own first.

Which is pretty much the idea behind nationalism and patriotism.

But what constistutes one's own is fluid.

If it came down to protecting the Ukrainian family that I love ( what ever the hypothetical situation might be) or American strangers it would be the former.

It made be fluid - but you would protect Ukaraine first before protecting America that gave you all the benefits that have made you who you are? I would protect Canada if they were attacked. But if we ended up being at war with them - I would fight on the side of America. America is my country and home. Just like I will fight for New Jersey before I will fight for New York or Pennsylvania and I will fight for Pennsylvania before I will fight for New York. But since I have a house in Indiana - I woud probably fight for Indiana before I fight for another state other than New Jersey.

[afro-elf]

Which is pretty much the idea behind nationalism and patriotism.

again by point is voiced as:


"However it can be taken far too far when it becomes a strife between people just because they're from a different nation. The idea of 'This is our nation, you have nothing to do here, you have nothing to say here so just go away." is rather frightening at times. You can be part of a particular nation but that doesn't mean you can disrespect others who are not. Nor does it mean that you have the right to look only at your own interests. It's only natural to do so but it's sometimes important that you're able to look beyond nations to do things for the greater good"


I think we are not saying anything different.

I ask you this would you support NJ, or America NOT MATTER what?

[afro-elf]

It made be fluid - but you would protect Ukaraine first before protecting America

It soley depends were my closest family is. If I had an Ukrainian wife and kids and were in the Ukraine I would probably go there if Ukraine and American were both attacked.

The quandary I can not answer is: given the above situation what would I do if they were at war with each other.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
again by point is voiced as:


"However it can be taken far too far when it becomes a strife between people just because they're from a different nation. The idea of 'This is our nation, you have nothing to do here, you have nothing to say here so just go away." is rather frightening at times. You can be part of a particular nation but that doesn't mean you can disrespect others who are not. Nor does it mean that you have the right to look only at your own interests. It's only natural to do so but it's sometimes important that you're able to look beyond nations to do things for the greater good"

See I agree that it is no one's business what we do inside our country. We have FREELY elected government. When I hear people from outside complaing about capital punishment, or the right to bear arms or our public health care - it isn't their business. They have no say in it. They have NO vote.

OUr government is elected to represent our interests - just like all countries governments represent their interests.

I think we are not saying anything different.

There are slight differences I think to how you feel versus I feel- unless there is something I'm missing.

I ask you this would you support NJ, or America NOT MATTER what?

No - as I have said repeatedly - I do not agree with everything the government does. As a matter of fact - I peronally hate our governor. I'm not alone in hating our governor though. He currently has a 34% approval rating right now and that's after it went up 9 percentage points.

By the way - if I don't like something - i write letters - either to representatives or to the newspapers. Read the police thread - and you'll see what affect my letters sometimes have.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
It soley depends were my closest family is. If I had an Ukrainian wife and kids and were in the Ukraine I would probably go there if Ukraine and American were both attacked.

The quandary I can not answer is: given the above situation what would I do if they were at war with each other.

Well under that senario you would know somewhat how it felt to be in the Civil War. In the atrium of Nassau Hall at Princeton University carved in marble are all the names of the the people who attended Princeton and died in wars. The Civil war - 50 students died fighting for the north and exactly 50 students died fighting for the south.

New Jersey was actually split by the Mason Dixon Line if it had gone straight through New Jersey. Southern New Jersey actually supported the south more and northern New Jersey supported the north. Officially all of New Jersey supported the north of course - but the general populous of New Jersey was very divided on the issue.

[afro-elf]

There are slight differences I think to how you feel versus I feel- unless there is something I'm missing

We both agree that you should take care of your own first.
That it does not make us innately better humans being Americans.
That we should not just tow the line just because its American.
And a DAMN glad I am American.

I think the only difference is you feel proud and I feel lucky.

I am gonna start another thread that I think you might like.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
We both agree that you should take care of your own first.
That it does not make us innately better humans being Americans.
That we should not just tow the line just because its American.
And a DAMN glad I am American.

I think the only difference is you feel proud and I feel lucky.

I agree with all that - but I do feel proud AND lucky. Like I have said - i have often wondered what wouold it be like to have been born in another country like war torn africa or the middle east. And it is luck that I was born in America. But at the same timeI am proud to BE an American and I am proud OF America.

[afro-elf]

IIRC you work with computers. Is politics / US History solely a hobby or is there some prior educational background?

[afro-elf]

i have often wondered what wouold it be like to have been born in another country like war torn africa or the middle east.

To HELL with the back to Africa movement of Marcus Garvey. Africa is !@#$ed UP.

When I go home and hear my blacks friends complain about having it bad while having VCR's. CD's, heating, ACCESS to education, etc... I just shake my head.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
IIRC you work with computers. Is politics / US History solely a hobby or is there some prior educational background?

Yes - I work in computers. Politics and history were/are just a hobby I guess. My mother was very big on us knowing how the government worked. So we always had to watch the elections and everything. In high school I was very big into English History - particularly the Plantagenents and up to the War of the Roses. My freshman year of college I was accepted into a Senior English History class. I used to know all the Kings and Queens of england.

Then I had studied Russian history (particularly the Romanovs), American History (of course) and New Jersey History.

Formally I haven't studied history - I have just read a lot. My goal - which I have sort of slacked on - is to read all the president's biographys from George Washington to who ever the president is when I die. I'm only on Thomas Jefferson though. The Thomas Jefferon biography I have though is 5 volumes. It's by Dumas Malone. I also go a lot to historic sites around NJ and have been to Philadelphia so many times that I can give the tours.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
To HELL with the back to Africa movement of Marcus Garvey. Africa is !@#$ed UP.

When I go home and hear my blacks friends complain about having it bad while having VCR's. CD's, heating, ACCESS to education, etc... I just shake my head.

Well that's like Whoopi Goldberg's famous quote about people saying "African American". She said - "I've been to Africa, and let me tell you - I'm AMERICAN"

It is true though - poor in this country is having a car and air conditioning, cell phone etc. People don't really know what poor is like. There are homeless of course - but the majority of poor people here have more than most people in the world. I was surprised at how many things unemployment offers. They offer classes for starting your own business, educational grants, the list of things they offer is unbelievable.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by wahine
Sheeana, say perhaps, that you are on vacation in ...erm...Australia or something, and NZ is blown to smithereens, would you still look it as "just a rock"? Or would it then be your home?

I couldn't care less if New Zealand was blown to smithereens, as you say. It's just a rock. What I *would* care about is that everyone I cared for who just happen to be living on the rock would be dead due to being blown to smithereens. My point is that where we are born is pretty much random, and therefore I feel that nationalism is irrelevant. In response to JD, if I was born in North Korea, then sure. What binds us together is culture, and shared interests, not what rock we're on. However, the fact that our "rocks" are geographically isolated from each other, enables us to derive unique cultures. To put it simply, I'm more concerned about the people I interact with on a daily basis than I am about what particular continent I happen to be standing on.

[jerseydevil]

Sheena/BoP -

You seemed to be pretty proud and "patriotic" sounding in your descriptions of New Zealand in the "What's your country like..." thread.

I tend to moan, and take it for granted, but there are so many things that are unique to New Zealand. For one thing, New Zealand has forrests like no other place in the world. The Waitakere Ranges (about 15 minutes away from where I live in the city!) were formulated with a volcanic eruption, and there are literally thousands of treks in that region alone. Just walking through them takes you millions of years back. The forrests are so ancient, and far removed from the flora of some of the more mainland places. I guess some of you saw a glimpse in FOTR, but that was nothing! And I can honestly tell you, there's nothing like trekking in our bushes, and going for a swim at the Cascade falls, and abseiling down the cliffs, and walking along our west coast beaches (my parents live on Bethells beach where Xena used to be filmed, and in Sturges road, where Hercules used to be filmed...) It's an amazing place to be.

I don't know - sounds like you like New Zealand to me - nor does it sound like you just consider it a rock.

I just spent some of the day braving the weather down at Auckland's scenic viaduct basin (built for the America's Cup) protesting against the plutonium shipment in the pacific (we're anti-nuclear), and guess who turned up, of all people! Our Prime Minister, Helen Clarke!! Only in New Zealand would the PM gatecrash a greenpeace movement to join the protest. At times like this, I LOVE New Zealand.

I sort of sense a little pride there too.

[Sheeana]

So? It's still just a rock. And it is an amazing place to be. There are some fantistically unique flora and fauna to be found here. Just as there is some unique attributes to be found in other countries.

I haven't been anywhere else in the world. No doubt I'll be saying some pretty similar stuff about other countries I plan to visit. Just because I find something to be beautiful does not mean that I'm being nationalistic. And New Zealand just happens to be a very pretty rock. But that doesn't change the fact that my being here was a pretty random process. My parents just happened to get naughty during their honeymoon, and next thing ya know: here I am! Ta da! In Noo Zeeland. I cherish my culture more than I cherish the continent I stand upon.

Edit: And I should add that there's quite a big difference between an affinity for your place of birth, and nationalism. It would be silly for me to say outright that I don't have some fondness for being a New Zealander - of course I do, but as I said in an earlier post, I care more about the people I'm interact with than I do about any particular allegiance to my so-called country.

Edit 2: Just to clear up the continent confusion.

[jerseydevil]

Well just remember that if or when you leave you may feel differently. There is still no place like home. I've moved around enough and been to enough places to have experienced it first hand - that's why I feel the way I do about America and New Jersey.

By the way - New Zealand isn't a continent - it's an island country. Australia is a continent, Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, South America and Antartica - are continents.

[Sheeana]

New Zealand is part of the Australasian continent, so yeah, it is a continent. It just happens to share it with Australia (dammit.)

I take your point about leaving. It may well be that some sort of nationalism may kick in then, but I sincerely doubt it. I will miss some things about New Zealand when I leave, but they're still cultural things, which I've already said I have an affinity for.

By the way, I lied before. I completely forgot that I visited Australia once. (Must have been so traumatised, I blocked it out.)

[Sheeana]

Sorry, this is the best I could find:
http://www.paragliding.net/directory/places/contmap.htm

New Zealand has a lot of volcanic activity due to the plate movement that occurs directly down the center of the north island, and some parts of the south.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Sorry, this is the best I could find:
http://www.paragliding.net/directory/places/contmap.htm

New Zealand has a lot of volcanic activity due to the plate movement that occurs directly down the center of the north island, and some parts of the south.

I know. But calling new Zealand a continent because it's part of the" Australasian" - which here has only ever been called Australia although it is also called Oceania - is like me saying the United States is a continent because it's part of the North American continent.

Obviously that map really isn't broken up by continents though - because Mexico isn't included as part of North America - they list is as Latin America. Here is information on the continents

[Sheeana]

Yes, I know JD. That's why I said it was the best I could find - it was a paragliding site for gawds sake (but it served my point that New Zealand is part of the Australasian continent.) But yes, thanks for finding a better site. Anyway, you are simply nitpicking now. New Zealand is part of the Australasian continent. I mentioned that I don't have an affinity to the continent I stand on. The point still stands. I don't.

[Sheeana]

I should add that I don't recall directly calling New Zealand a continent (as in stand alone). If I somehow inferred that, then I'm sorry. It was not my intention. I'll edit the above 'continent' comment so it is more clear though. Apologies for the confusion.