Orcs - Page 5

ItalianLegolas · 12-29-2004, 06:12 PM

i think that orcs are not so much born evil as they are trained/made evil

Blackheart · 12-29-2004, 08:15 PM

Hrmm... I t hink they had a natural apptitude for evil...

Is this going to devolve (hehe) into an argument about nature vs nurture?

me9996 · 12-29-2004, 08:24 PM

How about a breed of orc that is less wild... new or an elf like early atempt at orcs.

How about the idea?

Lenya · 12-30-2004, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

i think that orcs are not so much born evil as they are trained/made evil

They are born twisted, but I don't think evil. And yes, i agree, they are definately made evil.

Blackheart · 12-30-2004, 02:22 PM

Morgoth made sure that the genetic code contained all the tendencies for cruelty, aggression, lack of empathy etc... everything to ensure that the orc does well in orcish culture...

So what I'm hearing everyone say is that orcs are predisposed to evil, but if you put one in human society... then you'd merely have a problem child that would in all probability, wind up in prison...

I think the probability of a "good" orc appraoches zero pretty rapidly. No it's not impossible, but it's so unlikely that the chances are close to nil...

me9996 · 12-30-2004, 09:48 PM

That orcs to tolken simbilised modern warfare?

me9996 · 12-30-2004, 09:51 PM

That Tolken called car sailsmen "The orcs who found the ring"

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

i think that orcs are not so much born evil as they are trained/made evil

Close, maybe... Orcs, I think, were made evil, as Blackheart says with the genetic code bit, and ever since are born evil, or at least with a predisposition to violence and ill temper.

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 06:16 AM

Hmm.

You take all the genetic markers from the worst human beings in history and combine them in one person. That person would be... what? What does that person look like at the core?

What does a newborn orc look like? Are they born with traits that make them any more evil than the rest of us (and I can tell you, I can be pretty evil sometimes).

What if Morgoth didn't waste his time trying to make them evil? What if he just needed to make them easier to control? The orcs could have been genetically constructed to make them very susceptible to domination by a demonic power, and the reason that they remained mostly evil was that the actions became... oh, shall we say, ingrained? Like a monitor that's held the same image for two long - the constant domination burned morgoths will into their brains, or whatever neural restructuring he did stuck. At that point, the behavior would become mostly self-propogating, as that generation of orcs would raise a generation in their own image, and make way for generations of orcs to follow in the same pattern because they didn't know anything else.

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

What if Morgoth didn't waste his time trying to make them evil? What if he just needed to make them easier to control?

Fair point, but what if Morgoth didn't waste his time trying to make them easier to teach to be evil and made them evil to begin with? It seems to be a chicken and egg situation.

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 06:22 AM

That's the point. Morgoth doesn't seem to care whether they're evil or not. Morgoth's goal was never to 'be evil' or to 'make other people evil'. It was all about power. Morgoth didn't create the orcs out of some twisted parody of parental affection, he created them because he wanted to control them, and to use them to bring the rest of the world under his control. Whether they would be evil when not doing his will wasn't really an issue.

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 06:25 AM

All right, I'm convinced. But surely he must have created them with a predisposition to violence and ruthlessness.

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 06:33 AM

Not intentionally. After all, why would he?

If you're going to use mind control to make someone do what you want, what's the point of spending extra effort to make them like it? Seems kind of superfluous to me.

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 06:37 AM

But does he control the individual actions of each orc at all times? If he's more limited in this mind control, then wouldn't he give the orcs the temperment to do what he would most likely want them to?

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 06:55 AM

I don't think that really follows.

All the evidence points to both Morgoth and Sauron having had the orcs under some serious mind control. You're right - they wouldn't have been able to totally control every orc at all times, but it doesn't seem to have been that difficult to get them all to do what the big boss wanted - how hard could it be to use that same influence to keep them all acting in a way which was generally acceptable (and eventually stuck).

Again, it sort of makes any kind of conditioning, genetic, behavioral, or otherwise, kind of superfluous. I can invade your mind, shatter your will, and force you to throw yourself headlong at my enemies with no thought for your own survival. It's kind of a waste of my time to try and program you to act in the way I want - if I feel that you should be nasty, cruel, and ruthless, then by golly I'll do it. It's not like overcoming any inhibitions you might have about that sort of antisocial behavior is going to be any harder than overcoming your instinct for self-preservation, now is it?

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

You're right...

You think I'm right? My world shatters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

...they wouldn't have been able to totally control every orc at all times, but it doesn't seem to have been that difficult to get them all to do what the big boss wanted...

...because they were born with a predisposition to it? As in... a predisposition to ruthlessness (the means by which the big boss achieved what he wanted)?

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 07:24 AM

Maybe I'll pick up the pieces and glue them back together into some sort of modern-art mosaic which I can hang on my wall as a conversation piece. Everybody gets to be right as long as they just repeat whatever the last thing I said was.

Now, here's something to consider: in the situation described, does it make more sense to condition the subject to act in the way which you're going to force them to act, or to make them more susceptible to your will by breaking down the natural resistance to mind control?

Really it seems to me that the way in which orcs behave was almost a side effect - a result of what they were made to do, not part of the process used to get them to do those things. That's why orcs are essentially weak at the core - they've been carefully modified to make them easy to control, through fear or any other means.

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Everybody gets to be right as long as they just repeat whatever the last thing I said was.

*snort* typical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Really it seems to me that the way in which orcs behave was almost a side effect - a result of what they were made to do, not part of the process used to get them to do those things. That's why orcs are essentially weak at the core - they've been carefully modified to make them easy to control, through fear or any other means.

I'll go along with that to a certain extent... But instead of just "easy to control", which would require active participation on Morgoth and Sauron's part, wouldn't it make more sense to have them born with the general mindset of Morgoth/Sauron's goals? And from that, isn't it a logical step to think their intrinsic patterns of behavior are tailored to do whatever it takes to achieve those goals?

Wayfarer · 01-02-2005, 07:40 AM

It would make more sense. Yes. Bur you're not keeping in mind what Morgoth's goal was. It wasn't 'to get back at the Valar'. It wasn't 'to be worshipped as a god'. It was to have control. And his motto seems to have been that the more direct that control was, the better - that's why he was quite a bit more 'hands on' than Sauron (who was a bit smarter, especially at first).

Sure, if overall control of the world is my goal, I'd go about it through the very orwellian tactic of subverting everybody and manipulating them to want me to rule them. But if I'm already conviced that I'm the most powerful being in the known universe, it's not going to be about ultimate authority. It's going to be about total, personal domination. That's what Morgoth wanted. He had serious control issues - which is why he wasted his effort by personally dominating his servants with an expenditure of will instead of seducing them into his service.

Minielin · 01-02-2005, 07:43 AM

Very good point.

12-29-2004, 06:12 PM	#81
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	i think that orcs are not so much born evil as they are trained/made evil __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-29-2004, 08:15 PM	#82
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Hrmm... I t hink they had a natural apptitude for evil... Is this going to devolve (hehe) into an argument about nature vs nurture? __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

12-30-2004, 02:22 PM	#85
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Morgoth made sure that the genetic code contained all the tendencies for cruelty, aggression, lack of empathy etc... everything to ensure that the orc does well in orcish culture... So what I'm hearing everyone say is that orcs are predisposed to evil, but if you put one in human society... then you'd merely have a problem child that would in all probability, wind up in prison... I think the probability of a "good" orc appraoches zero pretty rapidly. No it's not impossible, but it's so unlikely that the chances are close to nil... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

01-02-2005, 06:16 AM	#89
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Hmm. You take all the genetic markers from the worst human beings in history and combine them in one person. That person would be... what? What does that person look like at the core? What does a newborn orc look like? Are they born with traits that make them any more evil than the rest of us (and I can tell you, I can be pretty evil sometimes). What if Morgoth didn't waste his time trying to make them evil? What if he just needed to make them easier to control? The orcs could have been genetically constructed to make them very susceptible to domination by a demonic power, and the reason that they remained mostly evil was that the actions became... oh, shall we say, ingrained? Like a monitor that's held the same image for two long - the constant domination burned morgoths will into their brains, or whatever neural restructuring he did stuck. At that point, the behavior would become mostly self-propogating, as that generation of orcs would raise a generation in their own image, and make way for generations of orcs to follow in the same pattern because they didn't know anything else. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 06:22 AM	#91
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	That's the point. Morgoth doesn't seem to care whether they're evil or not. Morgoth's goal was never to 'be evil' or to 'make other people evil'. It was all about power. Morgoth didn't create the orcs out of some twisted parody of parental affection, he created them because he wanted to control them, and to use them to bring the rest of the world under his control. Whether they would be evil when not doing his will wasn't really an issue. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 06:25 AM	#92
Minielin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: I dwell in possibility. Posts: 247	All right, I'm convinced. But surely he must have created them with a predisposition to violence and ruthlessness. __________________ "...then how shall I Revive the dying tones of minstrelsy, Which linger yet about lone gothic arches, In dark green ivy, and among wild larches?" Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum.

01-02-2005, 06:33 AM	#93
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Not intentionally. After all, why would he? If you're going to use mind control to make someone do what you want, what's the point of spending extra effort to make them like it? Seems kind of superfluous to me. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 06:37 AM	#94
Minielin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: I dwell in possibility. Posts: 247	But does he control the individual actions of each orc at all times? If he's more limited in this mind control, then wouldn't he give the orcs the temperment to do what he would most likely want them to? __________________ "...then how shall I Revive the dying tones of minstrelsy, Which linger yet about lone gothic arches, In dark green ivy, and among wild larches?" Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum.

01-02-2005, 06:55 AM	#95
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I don't think that really follows. All the evidence points to both Morgoth and Sauron having had the orcs under some serious mind control. You're right - they wouldn't have been able to totally control every orc at all times, but it doesn't seem to have been that difficult to get them all to do what the big boss wanted - how hard could it be to use that same influence to keep them all acting in a way which was generally acceptable (and eventually stuck). Again, it sort of makes any kind of conditioning, genetic, behavioral, or otherwise, kind of superfluous. I can invade your mind, shatter your will, and force you to throw yourself headlong at my enemies with no thought for your own survival. It's kind of a waste of my time to try and program you to act in the way I want - if I feel that you should be nasty, cruel, and ruthless, then by golly I'll do it. It's not like overcoming any inhibitions you might have about that sort of antisocial behavior is going to be any harder than overcoming your instinct for self-preservation, now is it? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 07:24 AM	#97
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Maybe I'll pick up the pieces and glue them back together into some sort of modern-art mosaic which I can hang on my wall as a conversation piece. Everybody gets to be right as long as they just repeat whatever the last thing I said was. Now, here's something to consider: in the situation described, does it make more sense to condition the subject to act in the way which you're going to force them to act, or to make them more susceptible to your will by breaking down the natural resistance to mind control? Really it seems to me that the way in which orcs behave was almost a side effect - a result of what they were made to do, not part of the process used to get them to do those things. That's why orcs are essentially weak at the core - they've been carefully modified to make them easy to control, through fear or any other means. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 07:40 AM	#99
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	It would make more sense. Yes. Bur you're not keeping in mind what Morgoth's goal was. It wasn't 'to get back at the Valar'. It wasn't 'to be worshipped as a god'. It was to have control. And his motto seems to have been that the more direct that control was, the better - that's why he was quite a bit more 'hands on' than Sauron (who was a bit smarter, especially at first). Sure, if overall control of the world is my goal, I'd go about it through the very orwellian tactic of subverting everybody and manipulating them to want me to rule them. But if I'm already conviced that I'm the most powerful being in the known universe, it's not going to be about ultimate authority. It's going to be about total, personal domination. That's what Morgoth wanted. He had serious control issues - which is why he wasted his effort by personally dominating his servants with an expenditure of will instead of seducing them into his service. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-02-2005, 07:43 AM	#100
Minielin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: I dwell in possibility. Posts: 247	Very good point. __________________ "...then how shall I Revive the dying tones of minstrelsy, Which linger yet about lone gothic arches, In dark green ivy, and among wild larches?" Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum.

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