Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Artanis]

GMT+1. I think I'm 9 hours ahead of you, and 5-6 hours ahead of SGH. And late is late considering my little one always wake up before 6 AM. I try to go to bed at 10 PM, but there has been some late Entmoot posting lately.

[Earniel]

Just wanted to say: I've bought Morgoth's Ring today. (go me! ) *signs off and goes to bed while putting Morgoth's Ring under her pillow* precioussss.....

[Artanis]

Good for you, Eärniel. Read, enjoy, and come back here and post!

I'm up too late again. Must have some sleep now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Just wanted to say: I've bought Morgoth's Ring today. (go me! ) *signs off and goes to bed while putting Morgoth's Ring under her pillow* precioussss.....

That's great Earniel, enjoy. I think you will really be moved by the Athrrabeth as you can see we are. Looking forward to reading your comments and thoughts on that most profound piece of writing.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*signs off and goes to bed while putting Morgoth's Ring under her pillow* precioussss.....

LOL!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I was referring to what Tolkien once wrote about the Athrabeth: "Already it is (if inevitably) too like a parody of Christianity." and Christopher's comments on this: "Obviously, he was not referring to the legends of the Fall: he was saying clearly that the introduction of such a legend would make 'it' - presumably, the Athrabeth - altogether into 'a parody of Christianity'."

Oh, I see what you mean, and how he would not want to make it into a parody. It's interesting how Tolkien set his stories in this world, as opposed to C. S. Lewis setting Narnia in another world. Lewis said something along the lines of his Narnia stories were not an allegory, either, but a story of how he supposed that Jesus would have entered into another kind of world (Narnia) to save it.

[Rían]

OK, I have both Adanel and letter #131 here.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The Tale of Adanel is a dark one, and a sad one. .... [skipping middle part to save space].... IMO, this would seem to be a cruel move by Illuvatar if that were the case, because they (Men) really could not be held accountable for their mistaken choice of the voices at that time sinse they were ignorrant, however, it does show their weakness to temptation and their greed.

On a re-reading, I noticed that the First Voice always answered when they called, but didn't always answer in the way they wanted, and then because "we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will ... therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice." I think as you said, SGH, that greed was an issue, also pride. Also, I think the fact that they spoke with the First Voice less and less made them more susceptible to listening and agreeing with the Second Voice (who, after all, was saying the First Voice was doing something wrong by leaving them "alone and uninstructed", which was also not true; they were not alone: because the First Voice answered when they called, and they were not uninstructed: they were instructed to seek answers for themselves so they could grow and become wise. Wasn't that irritating when your parents said that to you!) Also, I think by hardly calling upon the First Voice anymore probably desensitized them to perceiving that something was wrong with the Second Voice.

Concerning the discussion of Illuvatar entering into Arda to heal it, I do not really see this as a Christian connection, although it may well be. .... [not quoting whole paragraph to save space ] .... but that instance would not be the only time god ever entered into the world or appeared to someone, and has he not also been in communication with agents in the world without entering into it himself?

But according to the Bible, God has spoken to men in many different ways (through the prophets, through the Bible, through the wonders of creation), but there is only ONE instance of God actually coming into the world as a man, and that is Jesus. So I think that part does apply, at least IMO.

This creation of Tolkien's is heavy guys.

I know! It takes a long time to post here, I have to think so much! I just had the stupid Earthlink timeout window pop up, because I have been so long in typing this that it looks like (to my internet provider) that I have wandered off somewhere - it was trying to log me off! The nerve!
Oh, one other interesting point - the part where it describes where they heard the First Voice for the last time. It spoke in the stillness of the night, and without being called on by them - kind of sad.

[Rían]

Hey, Sister "Golden Hair" - I just thought of something - is that why you like Finrod so much? Your hair matches his?

My redheaded friend that I mentioned earlier married a guy with the exact same shade of red hair - they look really cute together!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hey, Sister "Golden Hair" - I just thought of something - is that why you like Finrod so much? Your hair matches his?

My redheaded friend that I mentioned earlier married a guy with the exact same shade of red hair - they look really cute together!

Actually, I never used to like blonde guys, but I guess I changed in my old age. However, now, I only like blonde guys if they are Elves. I think I like Finrod for many reasons, not just because he is hot, but he had such a gracious nature. He was so noble and powerful, and yet very down to earth and acted like he was just a normal guy. He did not flaunt his royalty, and yet ruled the largest kingdom with sterness. He was also such a smart guy. God, I wish he was real.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think I like Finrod for many reasons, not just because he is hot, but he had such a gracious nature. He was so noble and powerful, and yet very down to earth and acted like he was just a normal guy. He did not flaunt his royalty, and yet ruled the largest kingdom with sterness. He was also such a smart guy.

That reminds me of this section (spoken by Andreth):

"We may be 'Children of Eru', as ye say in your lore; but we are children to you also: to be loved a little maybe, and yet creatures of less worth, upon whom ye may look down from the height of your power and your knowledge, with a smile, or with pity, or with a shaking of heads."

I was rather surprised that Finrod said many of the elves thought something like that, although he certainly did not. I never really got that feeling from LoTR or the Sil, did any of you?

[Artanis]

Yes, I did get that feeling, though I can't put my finger on why.
The only example I can think of right now is Arwen's words to Aragorn, as he lies himself down to die. Then she says:

not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools have I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.

As I reread this passage in RotK I can relate Aragorn's words also to the Doom of Men as it is described in the Athrabeth. His words are more meaningful to me now. Aragorn says:

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.

[Artanis]

Oh yes, another example is Thingol's attitude towards Beren of course.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh yes, another example is Thingol's attitude towards Beren of course.

Absolutely. He used wonderful names like "baseborn mortal"

[Rían]

Yes, good examples. I had forgotten about those. But I still didn't get the feeling that many elves felt that way. I guess, when I read those parts, that it was more a "royalty" looking down upon "non-royalty" thing (definitely in Thingol's case, somewhat in Arwen's, because although she was not "royal", she was still of very high descent). I had the feeling that most elves just looked upon humans as I would look upon someone in, say, a train station that spoke a language that I didn't understand - they were of equal value, but not worth trying to interact with much (besides smiles across the room and help if they are in obvious trouble), because they wouldn't be there long.
Do you think the elves held men in higher esteem back in the days of Numenor?
p.s. - the reference to Fingolfin dying was sure an odd error, wasn't it? Hard to believe he got his dates mixed up like that! (Of course, I get mine mixed up all the time )

[markedel]

The elves obviously had close friendship with the edain and numenorians, so how elves look at "Men" and how they look at the edain may be different.

[BeardofPants]

Aargh! I knew I should have avoided this thread with a ten foot barge pole! Now I'm sorely tempted to start reading my copy of Morgoth's Ring. *sigh* I'm only up to Lost Tales II.

[Rían]

markedel - yes, that's true... Now I'm going to have to review some more time lines to see who comes into contact with whom and when ... drat my date-impaired brain!

BoP - Morgoth's Ring! Morgoth's Ring! Rah-rah-rah! Drop BoLT! (besides, aren't you curious about the title? After all, Sauron was the one with the ring .... right????) SGH and Artanis - DON'T TELL!!

[BeardofPants]

No, I want to read them in order, so I don't miss anything. I don't want to leap into Morgoth's ring, and have stuff going over my head, because I didn't read the earlier mythology. Well, I was gonna read MR first, but then someone mentioned that I might miss some references, so I'm gonna be patient, and save the best for last!

[Sister Golden Hair]

BoP, you don't have to read them in order, because they don't all tie in together. For example, BoLTs 1 and 2 is the old mythology, then you have something like four books that are related to LotRs, and then you have Two books that are the Later Silmarillion. So it's not a big deal to do them in order.

[Sister Golden Hair]

About the feelings Elves had for Men. I think Finrod was more fond of Men then any other of the Eldar particularly because he was the first to meet them and sort of had a special bond with them. I think the Elves may have looked down on the race of Men for their mortality more then anything else. Later they just plain did not trust Men, especially after the Nirnaeth.

Thing-ol disliked Men for no good reason, but he disliked the Noldor for coming back to Middle-earth too. He did not descriminate. Later, the ol fuddy duddy softened up on Men after puting Beren through hell.